Observations

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

   I have been reading numerous posts for a few months now.

One thing that stands out and seems a bit strange for a DIY forum is the number of people saying something cant be done.

   The taking of a simple workable idea and brow beating it to death because it may not  be 100% efficient. Then we have those who ask what may be a valid question on why hasnt someone ever tried this. They are often met with an attitude of it hasnt been done because it wont work.

 Personally I prefer an attidue of anything is possible . That is after all the attitude that has given us all our major invetions and innovations. We dont learn by pigion holing and only using know formulas, all this does is repeat the same results others have done before. Stepping outside the box is how improvements are made.

What may be currently accepted as a physical or eletrical law may well in the future be found to have been a false theory. Some are going to scream that the laws of physics dont change, Not true. Look at how many of those laws have changed in the last 75 years.

    I would like to commend the Dans and others for their personal innovations in the DIY  or alternate energy.

    Now a few ideas that some may find interesting

1. Why is it that only one person has built a router based blade carver. It seems as though this would be quite simple to design and build . A few pieces of pipe, some HDPE bushings/bearings, a router mounting plate, and a stylus. look at a duplicarver and make something with a much longer bed. For that matter a router pantagraph could work as well. Either of which would allow you to make a blade and then copy it as many time as needed. Just a suggestion as not everyone can afford a CNC .
   
2. Efficientsy is often over rated , Most people in the real world need something practical. I have never understood the idea that burning wood gas could be more efficient than a good old fashioned wood fire. One is simple and time tested from the begaining of man kind, the other is complicated and prone to down falls.
   
   

   To quote Scotty from star trek " the more curves in the plumbing the easier it is to back it up" Keep things simple. (yeah I know not a direct quote)

[willib]

Three people that i know of have worked on a blade carver using cnc

Rich , has completed one with good results

Frank is working on one as we speak .

someone else was building a foam cutter using cnc..

maybe when people say something wont work , they have allready tried it , and are trying to help out the other person,or maybe they are just sticks in the mud with nothing better to do, it depends

[scottsAI]

Hello Don Cackleberrycreations,

You are bringing up something that has been brought up several times now.

I think people are getting the point. The tone of most posts has improved.

You should re-read your post. YOU are guilty of exactly what you're complaining about!

"We dont learn by pigion holing and only using know formulas, all this does is repeat the same results others have done before. Stepping outside the box is how improvements are made."

Then you say #2:

"Efficientsy is often over rated , Most people in the real world need something practical. I have never understood the idea that burning wood gas could be more efficient than a good old fashioned wood fire. One is simple and time tested from the begaining of man kind, the other is complicated and prone to down falls."

So which way do you want it??

Thinking outside of the box or sticking with simple unchanging things that work?

:-)

Have fun,

Scott.

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

  Actaully If you read the post you would see I stated most DO NOT have a CNC and suggested an alternative. Being an user built duplicarver or pantagraph which would use a $30 router which most can afford. I realize this is old school but so am I . Some of us still use an old fashioned architechual scale,T square, and compass for most of our designing rather than a cad program. This isnt a slam against those that have such  tools , its just a statement that most DIYers dont.

I tend to enjoy building things I need with basic off the shelf or dumpster salvaged parts ( Im cheap) . My first wildmill project was a 36" fan blade attached to a powerwheels gearbox and motor, Nothing fancy but it would light a light bulb or charge a Nicad pack in stiff winds. No it didnt last long but was fun. I still think ventilator turbines (for ventilating attics) could provide a small amount of charging for emergancy lighting systems. Is it practical ? not very . Is it a fun project?sure!

    Ideas and ideas and anything is possible .

Using magentic material suspended in a liquid and thermosyphoned through coils the heat being provided by the sun. Solar air conditioning on the same idea as a propane fridge.

dual purpose roofing materials providing protection from the wheather as well as producing heat. None new ideas  but many tossed aside because someone was told that wont work. In my thinking a wind turbine that burns out after a couple years isnt that great either . Now one that has been flying for a couple decades with little maintainence and problems is a great design whether its efficient or not as long as its producing.

   The same goes for vehicals the 62 austin sprite I had in high school got 40mpg using pump gas ,points and condenser, no computer control , heck it ad all of two fuses for the entire car. Was it at peak efficientsy , doubtful ( never could get the carbs to sync right) Still it provided dependable and fun transportation on the cheap .

( the clock work wind up key on the trunk used to get a lot of looks)

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

Guilty as charged

Sorry Scott

I live in the estrogen ocean so the I want it all female attidude tends to invade from time to time. ;-)

[wdyasq]

AND, some who have actually written code and carved blades on a CNC machine you failed to include.

Ron

[JW]

wasdag-q,

Your ok with me man(Ronb), just wanted to say that..

Keep doing what your doing...

true constructive critisim is hard to accept, but you do it well.

JW

[whatsnext]

"Personally I prefer an attidue of anything is possible ."

Nothing wrong with this unless your idea is something akin to using alchemy to turn lead into gold. At that point don't be suprised to be waylayed by the naysayers. There are a lot of very well educated people here and when one of them says "It won't work" it may be because they've studied it and want to do you a favor by saving you the time it would take to fail for the same reason the guy in 1800 who tried it first did. It just isn't 'practical' to waste time.

"That is after all the attitude that has given us all our major invetions and innovations."

This is false. A great number of inovations and breakthroughs are really just the result of baby steps made from excisting ideas.

"I would like to commend the Dans and others for their personal innovations in the DIY  or alternate energy."

I would like to commend the Dans also but not for being inovative in the slightest, just for being very practical and building a recipe so that people who are unfamiliar with the mechanics of RE can get a good start.

The idea that we should ignore those that came before us because they just were not bright enough to figure the things out that we should be able to if we just put our heads together is really folly.

John..

[Norm]

   Have you ever thought of using a router with a

1/8 inch  cutter to cut kerfs to the exact depth

every half inch then chipping out in between and

then the router 2nd pass and finish cut would be

about 3 times faster than having the router cutting all the wood.

                  ( :>) Norm.

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

"Personally I prefer an attidue of anything is possible ."

"That is after all the attitude that has given us all our major invetions and innovations."

"This is false. A great number of inovations and breakthroughs are really just the result of baby steps made from excisting ideas."

Examples of those who were told it was impossible De Vinci, Newton ( BTW he did study alchemy as did many great innovators) Edison, Tesla, Einstien and the list goes on .

Had these men simply given up or quit reaching we would not be having these debates

Once again the entire point has been ignored.

"The idea that we should ignore those that came before us because they just were not bright enough to figure the things out that we should be able to if we just put our heads together is really folly."

How many times did the great minds of the eletronic world attempt to create the Television,radio,computer and countless other things only to fail. It wasnt until someone with a new perspective and idea came along that they became reality. A few years ago it was impossible to create diamonds then a kid downunder did it for a science project and revolutioized the industry, Now they are making gem quality diamonds ( in away that too is alchemy)

    As for learning from those who came before us yes we should but to lock ourselves into a set of laws and formulas limits further growth. Dont ignore whats been done , but dont stop dreaming of new ways either.

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

You are quite correct Norm

I do something simular when using the pantograph to cut deep designs for my paygan stones and large sundials.

A blade cutting duplicarver would of course need a long bed though its not beyond the reach or ablity of most DIYs

[dinges]

Don,

Yes, Newton, Edison, Tesla, etc.etc. succeeded where others said they wouldn't.

However, for every Edison there must be 100s of others who also bravely ignored other people's opinions, did their own thing and failed. You don't read about them in the history books though.

What I'm trying to say: one can get a very imbalanced view by only at the succesful ignorers of conventional wisdom.

Then again, maybe we need the 100 failures so we have 1 succesful Edison?

Peter.

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

Here is an example .

For most of us a lighter frame would work fine

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=141&PN=4

[whatsnext]

An addition to this is the simple fact that we did not need Edison to invent the light bulb. There were numerous others working toward the same goal. So even if Thomas had drank beer instead of spending time in the lab the rest of us still would have had light to work by. You're giving the notion of invention WAY too much credit. Developement ends up being much more valuable in the long run.

John...

[Countryboy]

Hi Don,

  I think the biggest problem is that the vast majority of folks (especially Americans) are 'unedukated'.  We have massive failures to communicate our thoughts in a manner that other folks can understand what we mean.

We are using a means to communicate which demands we are educated.  Sadly, many folks have poor grammar and English usage skills, which means other folks have a difficult time understanding the thoughts someone is trying to share.  This problem is expounded by folks being unable to say what they really mean.

For example, saying something can't be done doesn't mean something is impossible to do.  Folks often say something can't be done, when they really mean that things will not work as intended, or that it is a tremendous waste of effort to accomplish a goal by a certain means.

I want to make clear that I understand that this is a discussion board used by folks around the world.  There are folks whose native language is not English, and it's understandable and acceptable that they have difficulties communicating with English speakers.  (Typically non-Americans who know English have far superior English and grammar skills than Americans.)

I want to be clear that I do not want to offend any non-native English users.  I know some members use translation programs.  I hope Nando will forgive me for using him as an example - I believe he uses a translation program, and he is often difficult to understand.  The man has tremendous experience and knowledge, and I'm grateful he shares that with us - but I still have a difficult time understanding him sometimes.  (I can only imagine his frustration trying to understand many users, simply because his translation program is unable to recognize any coherent thought in the post.  We should all admire him for his persistence in trying to help other folks.)

As for Americans with poor English and grammar skills - if they have used English their whole lives, and are still unable to effectively communicate their thoughts, how can anyone have any faith in their competence to do much?  We may tell them they can't do something, not because what they are proposing can't be done, but because we recognize they lack the mental capacity to do it.  We judge other members by their posts - which means they are often treated like the idiots they have portrayed themselves to be.

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

While I understand your post. The idea that poor communication skills indicates a lack of intelligence is also folly. By such thinking we gained asinine sayings and prejudice as "deaf and dumb". When in reality the ablity to hear has nothing to do with one potential.

     anc ouy ader hsit, tsih si ahwt omts of het tpsos reeh olok ot em.

     Can you read this, This is what most of the posts here look to me.

Im dislexic, It in no way effects my intelligence though does effect my communication. It makes no difference whether a post is written in perfect english with flawless punctuation to me  they are all a jumble of letters. Yet I can decifer them .

Imagine trying to see the world of writing through my eyes . Then having others who have never had to deal with such a thing judge you as foolish or uneducated.

   Makes me think of a friends story about sunday school . The teacher ask the class if everyone had seen a rainbow. My friend being a little precocious said of course everyone has. Then felt lower than whale dung when the teacher informed him that he had never seen one because he was color blind.

     

[TomW]

DCC;

The flip side to this communication coin is that you cannot blame the receiver for an improperly transmitted message.

I have known men with amazing skills to duplicate devices from just looking at one who could not read roadsigns let alone technical documentation. Neither could they write a description of how it worked or maybe not even describe it in speech. These fellows were far from stupid, dumb or anything like that they simply could not communicate well. Compound that with English as the language of this forum and some folks will not have it as a first language then we can come close to reproducing the tower of Babel.

I do have to admire folks who can communicate in more than one language simply because I never have been expected to myself.

Personally, I check and recheck my posts trying to achieve proper spelling and usage because I was taught along the way that it matters when trying to transfer information between people via written word. I did have a couple technical writing classes over the years which helped, I think. The thing I dislike the most are people who use lots of acronyms and internet abbreviations like "U R" instead of "you are" just a pet peeve.

Bottom line is that you should strive to present any comments, stories, etc. in as clear a language as possible and include every bit of information you possess. If you are testing your solar panels inside the house you should say "inside the house" because "through the glass" does not relay that accurately. Most panels have glass as part of the panel.

Ok just opinions again. But honest ones.

Cheers.

TomW

[whatsnext]

"Once again the entire point has been ignored."

Yes, by you. The whole point of this board is the exchange of practical ideas about DIY RE projects. There are many boards around the net where anyone can discuss any sort of wild idea like free energy or return to alchemy. You may find others that think more like yourself there. Personally I can't understand your complaints at all. If you, or others, don't want a critique don't ask for it.

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

My My are we a bit defensive.

I have not made any posts concering free energy  or the scams that go with it.

Nor do I practice alchemy , though I do understand that it was the foundation of modern science. Unless of course you consider pyrochemistry alchemy in which case I am in good company with Rev. Lancaster, Hart,and Wienburg.

Practical ideas for energy is all in your perspective. Are photovoltic cells practical? not if you consider the ammount of energy it takes to make them, there total energy out put and the disposal of them after their life cycle. From a purely monetary stand point they tend to be a loosing proposition. Though this can also be said for batteries.

   My post was not an attack on anyone, it was an observation that there is becoming  more discouagement and less encouagement on the forum. Its not unusual with forums, each one has its set of elite posters. This site is fortunate that in general the elite members are helpful and knowledgible.

[Countryboy]

Hi Don,

  It's been proven that folks with higher IQs have better grammar and spelling than folks with lower IQs.

  Since we use English to communicate on this forum, folks are judged by their ability to communicate to be reflective of their intelligence.

  Even if someone's poor grammar and spelling is reflective of haste, or laziness, they still portray themselves as less intelligent than someone whose posts are grammatically correct, and how is clear, consise, and articulate.

  I know a local man who is almost blind, yet still uses a computer regularly.  He has a program that converts voice to text, and vice versa.  That would also benefit someone who was dyslexic.  A spell check program may also benefit a dyslexic user, by enabling them to put their thoughts into words that are understandable by other readers.

  Written text is the only way we have to judge other forum users.  If your dyslexia masks your intelligence, use your ingenuity to find a way to mask the dyslexia.  That way, others will be able to grasp a better understanding of your intelligence.

anc ouy ader hsit, tsih si ahwt omts of het tpsos reeh olok ot em.

The human mind has excellent cognitive abilities, and can decipher what that means.  A translation program has no cognitive ability.  That sentence would be totally incomprehensible to someone who uses a different language, and had to rely on translation programs.

Sadly, that is about how many of the posts appear to me too.  Not because I am dyslexic, but because that's how the post was actually written.  Your dyslexia may actually give you a helping hand in understanding other folks, because we aren't used to having to try to decipher everything we read.  Your dyslexia may actually mask just how poor many of the posts are.

[Phil Timmons]

hmmmm,

I think the difference may be partly from different backgrounds.

Comparing some different design environs I have played in . . .

In "defense" (aka KillCo, Inc.) industry engineering, there is often a hostile enviroment to the wacky new Star Trek designs that are put forth.  And that is a actually a very good thing.  Some real wacky things get shut down early that way.  The belief is that if the idea is truly worthy it will survive on its own merit.  

In medical equipment design, there is an extreme concern for caution and safety.  In that realm that is good, too.

What I have noticed in Renewable Energy, is a whole bunch of attaboys, and even "shining on" (a polite way of saying Bullsh!ting) that probably harms a bunch on the industry.  For example, think back to 1980 and the mythical 200 mpg carburator.  Clear bs, but folks in this realm "want to believe."  Still goes on this realm, today.  Free Energy folks, zero point this or that (zero point brains )  Really does not help anyone, even the folks "promoting" it -- other than maybe a few scammed dollars.  

So you tell me, would it be better to call BS as BS upfront and hard, or give the happy, shiny, people, bs routine?

I guess for me, I like folks to tell what is screwed up with something BEFORE I make the same mistakes others who have gone before me have done.  

[Don Cackleberrycreations]

Granted part of this is in jest.

    Im multilingual in some respects I speak fluent redneck,texican, hillbilly and even  midwestern english though must admit Have a hard time with yankee, newyorker, and massasses.Now depending on what part of the country you are from will depend on which accent sounds intelligent. It will also make a difference on what is considered proper english. I try my best not to venture north of the mason dixon or east of the mississippi for obvious reasons. I refuse to enter New York do to a number of anti american laws and since my duty in the navy I swore never to enter communist held territory without naval and air support, so much of the upper east coast is off limits as well are major parts of the west coast. (And Im a liberal)

    Now my attitude toward judging people by their english skills is simple it may well be your loss. Personally I can show a person how to build nearly anything from a bird house to a three stage radio controled rocket,even though I may not be able to write the detailed instructions. I never could show my work in algibra either but always had the answer correct . (yeah I know autism)

    Now one of the things that promted this thread was the arguements over the lawnmower generator. I had to laugh as some told the poster it wouldnt work. Kinda funny since I can remember something nearly identical that my grand fater built sometime in the 1940s that was still working fine when sold at a garage sale 50 years later. Then theres the debate over horse power ratings gas vs eletric. Experts site the fall in power curve of the gas engine but failed to do the same for the eletric motor.

1 hp is 1 hp  the difference comes from the torque curve given a set rpm. Unless of course your talking chevy hp vs dodge hp, then you have shetlands vs clydesdales  but it still come down to the rpm at which the max hp is produced dodge is around 24-3600 where as chevy tends to go more for 4-5000rpm.

     Just seems that some are so hung up on theory they ignore the possiblity that something can be made to work.

   Lets face it flat black curtains hung in south facing windows in winter wont heat your entire house but will help a little. Even simple things can and will help.

      Im still not quite sure why some have taken this thread as a personal attack on them. Its not meant as an attack on anyone, more pointing out that we should all try to be alittle open.

   

[DanB]

Not to get overly involved in this discussion I just thought I'd comment on this line:

"Are photovoltic cells practical? not if you consider the ammount of energy it takes to make them, there total energy out put and the disposal of them after their life cycle. From a purely monetary stand point they tend to be a loosing proposition. Though this can also be said for batteries."

I think you're wrong on both points.  I forget the 'real numbers' (not those promoted by the Reagan administration) about it, but the energy payback for solar panels is not that long (on the order of 2-4 years if Im not mistaken which is short compared to their lifetime).  Batteries aren't that bad either and they do a very good job of recycling them (so I've heard).  I dont have the info to backup those statements right now but...  I think the proper use of panels and batteries makes them pretty cost effective and energy efficient overall.

[Volvo farmer]

TomW wrote:

"If you are testing your solar panels inside the house you should say "inside the house" because "through the glass" does not relay that accurately. Most panels have glass as part of the panel."

I know you hate abbreviations but thanks for the LOL. That thread should be archived as an all time classic. That guy, as his pennance, should be forced to read all posts for the next year and tell anyone who has "low output" on solar panels to make sure he is testing the panels outside.

[Volvo farmer]

I think for some people, the practical aspect is even simpler than that. My choices were 1)Bring in the grid for $30,000 and pay $40/month electric bills. or 2)Buy solar panels, batteries, charge controller and inverter for less than $10,000 and pay no electric bills. Maybe change out batteries at $2500 every 8-10 years. The choice was obvious.

Dan, when you say "energy payback" do you mean raw energy in -vs- raw energy out? I might belive that in two years,  but I just ran the economic "energy payback" numbers and they're off by almost a degree of magnitude from that figure.

Nowadays, 1000W panels = almost $5000. 5 sun hours/day=5KW/day. Electricity $.20/KW (much higher than most pay now)=$1/day. Five thousand days (13.6 years) to pay for those panels, 100% efficient, no battery replacements, no inverter or charge controller costs.

Funny thing is, even with these horrible numbers, it still makes economic sense IF you're a long way from the grid. That's why I just can't understand this whole "grid-tied" phenomenon. At my shop in town, I pay $.04/KW in off-peak times, $.12 on-peak. Solar would take over thirty years to pay back at these (averaged) rates.