Film: "Who killed the electric car?"

[domwild]

Seen on Oz TV and will be shown as a film.

GM PR man: The car only had a range of 100 miles.

Supporter: So what, most city trips are only 30 miles.

GM: We only signed 800 three-year leases, then the owners had to give the cars back.

GM: We did not have any spare parts to keep cars going.

Supporter: Have you ever heard of a car company developing a car without thinking of support?

GM at the time was selling the Hummer monster. Supporter of green cars claims businesses running a Hummer can get a US$100,000 deduction while the electric car only attracts a US$4000 deduction, whatever that means.

Owner of an EV1 is quite happy, plugs car into charger every day and it costs her very little. With solar panels on top of her house, she is even selling back to the grid. This owner somehow managed to get the EV1 out of the "crusher's jaws", she even has a picture of the crusher.

This makes you think!!

[disaray1]

 They shredded them all due to political pressure from big oil, big auto, and a corrupt, oil driven federal government. The California Air Quality Commission had the final say, and since the commission had been corrupted also, the program stood no chance.

 IMHO, everyone needs to see this flick, just to get a better grip on whats happening.   "If your not outraged, your not paying attention."

 disaray1

[wdyasq]

I always amazes me folks watch TV and think it is the truth.

Ron

[dinges]

Fully agreed Ron. I only believe it if I have read it on the internet.

[disaray1]

  One of my favorite song lyrics of all time..  "TV, drug of the nation, breeding ignorance and feeding radiation"    Michael Franti  Spearhead

 I don't believe anything til George Bush says it. he-he-snort-chuckle.

 

[BigBreaker]

Those EV1s probably cost GM a fortune to make.  The lead acid batteries probably didn't last many cycles and cost another chuck of money to replace.  It also may not have been especially crash worthy.  I'm not surprised they stopped selling them.

Ford is going to stop making the Lincoln Town Car because they aren't selling enough.  They sell like 200,000 per year!!!

Automakers sell cars that they think they will make money selling.  Electric cars in the opinion of automakers are a niche that is too small to make money on.  Hybrids have broader appeal and can sell in volume.  Soon all hybrids will have a plug-in feature so that people can top off the batteries at home.  This will all happen first in Europe and especially Canada (expensive gas / cheap electricity).

PS  It's better for the environment to burn gas in an efficient car engine than coal at a power plant - generate electricity - transmit the power 400 miles - down convert to 120 AC - rectify - charge lossy toxic batteries - run juice through an electric motor.

Conspiracy theories generally raise more questions about the proponent than the hypothetical conspirators.

Run a calculation on how many 12V Amp Hrs there are in a gallon of gasoline run through a 30% efficient generator.  Next calculate the volume and weight of batteries needed to do the same thing.  Now calculate the cost of those batteries.  Batteries are TERRIBLE for energy storage, especially in a mobile application where weight and volume density maters.

Fuel cells and synthetic fuels supported by a small amount of Li ion batteries and super caps are the future IMHO.

[The Crazy Noob]

ok, this made me smile

[The Crazy Noob]

"PS  It's better for the environment to burn gas in an efficient car engine than coal at a power plant - generate electricity - transmit the power 400 miles - down convert to 120 AC - rectify - charge lossy toxic batteries - run juice through an electric motor."

This is true but not in the example stated by the poster of this topic where he sais that someone is charging their car with home-made solar electricity and even have enough left to backfeed into the grid.

[Gary D]

Fuel cell cars also need to get their hydrogen from somewhere. Electrolisis(sp) does tend mostly to use electric... In most parts of the country, having a plug in hybred would help with defrosting and heating and or airconditioning.... But the powers that be will decide what they think is best for us, and like cattle, most will agree and think it's the best we can do. Just a thought... Moo! Have a good one!  Gary D.

[veewee77]

The only reason the GM EV1 did not make it is because big gov't in kahootz with big oil wouldn't allow it.

Plain and simple.  Do the research. Nearly every single person who had one of those hated to part with it.

If they had kept on producing them, today, with better battery technologies and the rising price of fuel, they would have been more than a 'niche' product.

JMHO - YMMV

Doug

[whatsnext]

"Plain and simple.  Do the research. Nearly every single person who had one of those hated to part with it."

Who cares? They made so few of them that they are not a reasonable sample. A question: If you are as right as you think you are why isn't there already a market for electric motorcycles? There is no need for goverment involvement because no safety issues in their design. Battery technology is simply not good enough yet and if the original EV1 buyers had to pay what they truly cost none of them would have seen the light of day. Claiming that some cabal excists between Big Oil and Big Auto is just plain ignorant because if it really excisted the most obvious thing for them to do would have been to prevent Japanese import from coming over here. The EV1 was such a miniscule drop in the bucket that no one could have cared less about it. The EV1 failed because it was not a good deal for the money. Period.

[whatsnext]

Also meaningless because solar cells are so expensive per KwH they are not anything resembling "free". The cost of driving an EV1 via solar would have made taking a limo to work seem cheap. We burn gas because it is reletively cheap not because big oil has us brainwashed.

[JW]

I remember about a year before I graduated high school, the auto makers were tring to decide between AC drive systems and DC drive systems. I read somewhere at the time, that overheating with the dc motors was a big issue. I think it could be solved with an auxillary steam generator(genset). Obviously the car would still need to be charged. But such a system would be neat just the same. Also with low volt DC electric, the system could probably be serviced by the owner. Its pretty dam easy to make a dc speed controller for dc motor. Just use a pwm circuit and some mosfets in parallel hooked to the cummutor. Seems nobody took the time to design a good 400hp 12volt(maybe 24v)dc motor.

 Im a big champion of the electric car, I was saddened when the systems became so complex that you need a phd to check battery voltage.

JW

[whatsnext]

There is no such thing as a good 400hp electric as the high currents generate too much heat and requires too large of wire to carry. There is also no point in having an owner do their own service as he or she is probably more productive doing something else. I was just trying to make the point that the tinfoil hat brigade really need to think things through a little better instead of just blaming the evil genie.

[JW]

"Re: Film: "Who killed the electric car?" (3.00 / 0) (#13)

by whatsnext on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:42:59 PM MST

(User Info)  

There is no such thing as a good 400hp electric as the high currents generate too much heat and requires too large of wire to carry. There is also no point in having an owner do their own service as he or she is probably more productive doing something else. I was just trying to make the point that the tinfoil hat brigade really need to think things through a little better instead of just blaming the evil genie.

-'There is no such thing as a good 400hp electric as the high currents generate too much heat and requires too large of wire to carry.'-

"I was just trying to make the point that the tinfoil hat brigade really need to think things through "

We have...

 Its called "watteeeer cooooooleeeeed wirrrrre"

But yes, that was exactly the point I was tring to make. 600amps DC @ 12volts, dosnt scare me, sorrry-

You cant possibly imagion the torque produced from a simple car battery with a 14" rotor.... for like 25min in stop and go traffic, no kidding.

Aerodynamics keep enough of a load on the thing to feather out the heat band that is dissipatyed by the latent heat excange of water at like 970btu,s per pound at 4gpm. Ya you need a radiator.

JW

[whatsnext]

Why on earth would you want to create any waste heat no matter how easy it is to get rid of?

[JW]

Nobody wants to create waste heat...

But electric motors are not inherently 100%efficient. Mupltiple strands of wire in hand create the same effect as hollow core wire. Theres just less density, for eddy currents. If hollow core wire with coolant has the same effect as solid core wire, rectangular/or round, Id like to know hy this is.

JW

[stephent]

Looks like me--you--y'all all together killed the "lectric" car.

Actually the question of the car is easy--too much cost.

Anyone look up the cost of the Rav4Ev battery replacement?

Let alone the initial cost of the vehicle.

Take the vehicle to the local dealer--tell um it don't accelerate so well anymore--sticker shock wouldn't be the first and last shock you would get with a Honda.

Batteries are getting better and better.

But how many of you would pay $26K for a battery change?

I'm not talking about some of you (and my older brother fiddled with um for years too) who can build a decent battery bank--this is about the general population--they wouldn't--couldn't.

And just as soon as you have a wreck with your vehicle and even if it's not your fault--one of the bystanders is splashed with a bit of caustic or acid and sues YOU instead of the offendening driver..it can happen.

Take you electric vehilce for a trip--get on the freeway and drive at minimum speeds allowed--45 or so--for 2 hours approx--and then stop off for 4 to 8 hours to go again....THIS IS NOT acceptable to the general driving public anywhere in the "driving" world.

Looks like maybe INSISTING that hybreds should be an intermediate gap between gas/oil and total electric for it to be even getting off the ground as "accepted".

Driving habits have been formed for generations--gonna be hard to quit driving 100+ miles a day and living way out in the country (fresh air living and all that).

If every tree hugger and "tinhat" (I like that one) insists that total electric is the ONLY way to go now and in the future--it's gonna meet with stubborn resistance at EVERY level. However--insisting HYBREDS are called for now--waiting for a few more years and slowly moving in a more "public awareness internet" environment we have it can work...

The same thing GM done at a cost of approx 1B $$--"creep on the unsuspecting" masses with the old "Quarterback Sneak".

Actually 100 years ago there were more electric cars on the road then gas powered--how did "y'all" allow that to change?

And Flux has one good point--batteries are just about one ineffecient storage device if ever.

And hydrogen fuel cells are a joke at this stage. (wadda ya mean yer outta flux-capacitors?)

[disaray1]

What the hell are you guys building that would require 400hp? A dragster? Semi? Vibrator for Jenna Jamison?

  As one of the "tin hat brigade", I'm just lovin' that Exxon oil tanker named the "condoleeza" and watching Daddy Bush gettin' richer everytime oil prices go up. Did I mention Dick Cheney and Halliburton Oil Services Co.'s 1.7   BILLION   (taxpayer!)dollars no bid contracts since the start of the war with Iraq, which by the way is a very oil rich country?!? Please. It doesn't take an engineer...err....rocket scientist to figure this one out.

 disaray1

[electrondady1]

please bring me up to speed, which "group" of people are being mocked with the term "tin hats"?

[disaray1]

I think it those who believe that electric cars are possible NOW with the technology available, and that the US gov is in bed with big oil. I might have misinterpreted myself though.

 disaray1

[JW]

"What the hell are you guys building that would require 400hp?"

FUN...

 Look engineers have been complaining about battery's and tires for years. When We gonna get something better, etc.

 The problem is, it seems to be a one sided argument. Some company can re-program an e-prom and get more potental from a V8 engine in a production car. BUT god-forbid someone makes an electric car, that has stellar performance at the expense of range, without overheating the motor. The argument that the grid in the us, cant handle an electric car infristructure, has merit. But that doesnt stop people from spending millions on the x-prize. really whats the difference?(solid rocket engines) not saying 'the people' cant do things better than the gov't. But it pisses me off, when a bunch of collage grad's determine our future, with absolutly '0' unbias- experience. Thomas edison used to pay his engineers to circle a pile of unsuccesful ideas(things built), he's probably rolling over and over in his grave... Why is it ok to go against the grain in some situation's but not in others. it depends on the boss, thats why.

 This I why I watch Star-Trek Voyager.

JW

[ghurd]

Might want to run the numbers again.

A 600A 12V motor is only 9.65 HP.

(600A x 12V = 7200W, 7200/746 = 9.65HP)

A 400HP... is 400 x 746W = 298,400 watts, and W/V=I, 298400/12 = 24,866.66 AMPS.

A pair of full charged T-105s would be dead in 31.85 seconds... if they didn't explode.

Thats figured at the 20 hour rate!

G-

[electrondady1]

well i watch voager because of jerry ryan (7 of 9)

[stop4stuff]

The electric car is dead!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Long live the electric car!

http://www.teslamotors.com

(oh... info about the film http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F )

paul

[commanda]

One horsepower = 750 watts (in round figures).

400 horsepower = 300 Kilowatts (300,000 watts).

Watts = volts times amps

so

amps = watts divided by volts.

300,00 divided by 12 =

wait for it....................

25,000 amps.

What's the amp rating on your nearest mig welder?

Get the picture?

Amanda

[kitno455]

tin hat. i love that. cars (and their history) are my thing, i think about these issues a great deal (early studebaker history anyone?)

it all comes down to money. if the market demands (using their wallets) companies will produce. right now, the market is only demanding 'cheap' and 'convenient', so all the solutions produced will make use of existing gasoline distribution infrastructure. why? because its: A. inexpensive, proven technology, and B. gas pumps are EVERYWHERE.

it has taken us quite a few years to get to this level of sophistication. you can start a cross-country trip in the US on a half-full tank, and know that you will have the fuel to make it, cause there will be at least two gas-stations in every podunk cross-roads you pass. yes, most folks dont go on cross-country trips that often, but when a family member gets sick in a distant city in the middle of the night, you can get in your car and go without the slightest thought to when the batteries will run out. americans at least, will NEVER give that up. long recharge times and limited range are EXACTLY why the orignal electric cars were displaced by gasoline.

these are fundamentally only engineering challenges. when the cost of fuel rises to the point that the market demands of 'cheap' are no longer being met, there will be enough capital in the system to develop and market alterative solutions. free market has ALWAYS worked this way, the rules have not changed.

fortunately for us, the japanese can read the writing on the wall far better than US companies. while i dont think the hybrids are worth all the hype, at least it demonstrates awareness of coming engineering challenges, and makes reasonable use of existing automotive technology.

there is NO conspiracy, only disparity of resource allocation. a disparity that the US government is doing a poor job of offsetting, but patent seeking companies are rectifying.

allan

[finnsawyer]

After reading through the comments for the second day, I'd like to comment that an electric delivery vehicle might make sense for a company like UPS that knows how far each of their trucks will travel in a day.  An eight hour or more charging time then would be no problem.  Even around here I doubt the daily routes exceed one hundred miles.  Carried out on a large enough scale the manufacture and operation of such vehicles might be economical.  It becomes a matter of fitting the product to the use.

[ghurd]

"a matter of fitting the product to the use"

Many college campuses are using a couple steps up from golf carts for security, mail, etc.

Pizza Hut is using electric mopeds for delivery, but that's in Mexico (maybe Grand Cayman?)

I spoke with operators of both, and battery life was not an issue.

Over 95% of my driving is under 20 miles at 45MPH max, or well over 100 at 75MPH.

An electric car with a 30 mile range would be perfect for me, if I could afford one.

G-

[finnsawyer]

While you or I might not be able to afford "one", a large company like UPS could and would probably be interested if the economics were right, which probably would come down to the cost of electricity versus the cost of gasoline balanced against the life and replacement cost of the batteries, it being likely that the basic truck would have a sufficiently long life.

[Seele]

Some cabal does excists between Big Oil and Big Auto.  There is a relationship in every business model where one product depends on a completly different product to operate.  For example, off the top of my head:

Microsoft and PC makers.  Why do the computers for sale at your local electronics store already come with Microsoft's latest OS already installed on them?  Because there is a relationship between Microsoft and PC makers.  This is the same with Big Oil, and Big Auto.  We name it a 'cabal' to suggest something sinister between the oil companies and automobile companies, but the relationship can be named anything.  

[Seele]

I cannot find any validity in the arguments against an electric car, because every claim is too easy to shoot down.

"The 300 EV1s made were too expensive" -> one of the cheapest cars in the world is the Toyota Carolla, and about 1 million are made every year.  The most expensive car is the Lamborgini, and only about 300 are made every year.

There are other silly claims condemning the electric car, but they are easy as easy to prove wrong as the above example.  The world needs electric cars, and if the Auto Industry refuses to make them because of their relationships with the oil industry, the federal government should force them to be made.

[kitno455]

yes- given the broader/flatter torque curve of an electric motor, the savings from regenerative braking, and the relatively fixed route, an electric UPS truck makes some sense.

i would worry enough about reduced cargo capacity due to the batteries, that i would half-size the bank and put a single cyl diesel in just to charge the bank. the range increase means there is no reason this idea cant be applied to cars. windstuff ed was talking about something similar for his S-10?

i hate to sound like a broken record, but a battery breakthru might be what it takes...

allan