Author Topic: NASA design contest  (Read 371 times)

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randy727

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NASA design contest
« on: August 24, 2007, 02:02:53 AM »
Boy am I excited!  NASA Tech Briefs has sponsored a "Create the Future Contest" and I was lucky enough to have my idea selected for submittion.  Please check out the contest at http://www.createthefuturecontest.com/  Go to the transportation section and check out my idea.


Randy B.

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Normally we try to discourage folks having to go off site to see the "story". It just makes it a bit harder to keep a coherent discussion if they have to go there, read it then come back here to comment. This would have made more sense as a Diary, also. Since you are a long term member, I left it up.



« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 02:02:53 AM by (unknown) »

wdyasq

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 09:27:21 PM »
Well - great fame is headed your way .... If you use pop-corn as the fuel can you use butter instead of motor-oil and have the exhaust deliver fresh popped to the driver? How many miles-per-bushel will it get?


Congratulations on being selected,


Ron

« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 09:27:21 PM by wdyasq »
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Tritium

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2007, 07:49:39 AM »
Congratulations on being selected. Quite an honor but I have to question the sanity of a society that burns foodstuffs to fuel mechanical devices. Using a staple such as corn  for methanol production and corn burning appliances can only cause higher prices for operations that use it for animal feed and cereal operations. This will translate to much higher prices for all meat (beef, chicken and hogs). It will also translate into higher prices on many other food products and pet and livestock feed since corn is a major grain in the US. Only waste products or non food products should be burned for fuel.


Thurmond

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 07:49:39 AM by Tritium »

Bruce S

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2007, 08:30:56 AM »
Tritium;

  I have to respectfully disagree on this.

Couple things, 1.) Feedstock produces Ethanol , it's not poisonous even when jst touching it like Methanol is.


Most of my family lives in a farming area, and I have had many talks with them about this very subject. Mostly 'cause I make my own Alky fuel and really did want to get the truth from the farmer's and cattleman's point of view. I currently brew up a few gallons at a time so my prices are higher than what a commercial producers are ( now holding at $1.90/gal), which includes feedstock and production costs).

First , it is no real secret that the US government pays farmers to NOT grow foods on portions of their lands. This is to keep the levels of food stuff from becoming so over loaded with excess foods such as corn that the prices begin the bottom out.


The US currently already grows so much corn, both field and plate types, that we export about as much as we consume.

This is a good thing, we ship foodstock, to most countries that ask for it, which includes North Korea who at last count gets 40M tons per year FREE.

There would be of course a short, very short, lag time where the Ethanol producers could possible drive up the cost of feedstock , which according to the farmers, is equal to one growing season. The other high prices would becoming from Future's commodities people driving up the costs.


IMHO I would willing pay for the exhaust from a petrol based vehicle to be coming from an Alky based fuel than dino-dust.

As the Ethanol community again becomes more mature in producing like they used to, the production of feedstock based fuels along with waste by-products will increase in effiency.

Take a gander over at e85fuel.com and have a good read.


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 08:30:56 AM by Bruce S »
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finnsawyer

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 09:14:34 AM »
Currently 20% of the corn production goes to ethanol production.  The government has mandated a 700% increase in ethanol production.  This will require corn production to rise to 220% of what it is today.  Where will all the new land come from?  How many extra Iowas do we have available?  You speak of subsidies.  Ethanol production is being subsidized to the tune of $0.51 per gallon, which I strongly object to.  By the way, is nature trying to tell us something with the Midwest flooding?  Namely, that making fuel from food is wrong and stupid.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 09:14:34 AM by finnsawyer »

Bruce S

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 09:43:15 AM »
GeoM;

  No need for extra land , it's already sitting there idle. Take a gander at the rest of the country.

$0.51/ gal is a drop in the bucket compared to what is paid to oil companies.


Would rather we continue to import oil from countries that are not our best of friends? or worse stop sending food to those who NEED it?

BTW: the fuel comes mostly from field corn not people food which to me is neither stupid or wrong.

AND FYI, the by-product of making Ethanol from field corn is a much higher quality food than it started with. Check with local Agro ( I can send you links if you wish) about the high quality of both wet and dry from the Enthanol plants.

AND why in the world would I take on a project that would directly harm someone in my family or their ability to make/have an income?

HUM?


Bruce S

OKAY now the nature thing; you started this part so now prove it.


 

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 09:43:15 AM by Bruce S »
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Bruce S

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 09:50:52 AM »
Randy727;

  Apologies to you for the current threads.

I've read your stuff add it has merit, there is quite a bit about the producer gas and it's use on a website geared towards these things "journeytoforever.com"


Kudo's for getting picked!!

Keep it up and let us know what happens


Cheers

Bruce S

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 09:50:52 AM by Bruce S »
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TomW

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CORN
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2007, 09:56:41 AM »
Folks;


Any time corn comes up in discussion I suggest people go read "Omnivores Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.


It will give you a very good look at food production in this country and how much corn is used for things such as foods and things other than food. One of the reasons I guffaw when people say farmers get subsidized for corn. Monsanto, Cargill, etc are the true receivers of those subsidies.


I cannot say it as effectively as he did but it is worth a read, or a listen if your library has books on tape / CD.


Spoiler:


You may never eat boxed beef again once you follow a steer through the feedlot system.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 09:56:41 AM by TomW »

Mary B

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2007, 10:02:38 AM »
The leftovers from the ethanol making process are used as feed. The process removes the sugar but leaves a lot of protein loaded feed behind. I live in SW MN near one of the original ethanol plants and a friend drove truck delivering the feed from there.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 10:02:38 AM by MaryAlana »

wind pirate

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2007, 10:12:38 AM »
Congratulations on being selected - quite an honor. The idea of burning corn rather than fermenting it is excellent. I hope you continue on your journey....


On the corn issue, I believe the ethanol from corn craze is way out of control. While there is an abundance of corn production in the US, the sanity of corn to ethanol production is dubious at best.


I heat my house with corn and last year used a little over 6 tons of shelled corn. I buy corn from a local farmer so the money I spend goes right back to the community. This last year corn prices rose from $80 / ton to $118 / ton due to the craze over ethanol. Even though almost a 50% increase in cost, it doesn't come close to what I would have paid for dino juice to heat my house (plus I just feel better about it).


Where I live suddenly this year farmers are buying more equipment, farming more acreage and are all growing corn to ride the wave of good prices (which will never last). The cost of planting an acre of corn has increased tremendously from the massive increase in fertilizer and seed costs. Two years ago it cost $65/acre to plant and now it is almost $140/ acre. Transportation costs for fertilizer is the biggest cost - price of fuel (or greed??). Over 100% increase in the cost to grow corn versus the 50% increase in sale price doesn't lend itself to a sustainable future for some of these guys that are financing all this new equipment.


The problem I see is that the energy required to produce ethanol from corn is almost a one-to-one ratio. Corn is not an efficient material since for a unit of energy output, it requires a unit of energy input to produce. So the diesel fuel and oil used to plant, harvest, transport and distill ethanol is virtually a no- gain scenario. In the end, you aren't going to lessen energy consumption or costs this way. I believe after all the hype passes, corn production and prices will return to normal.


There are many alternatives that need to be explored further such as switchgrass, and the study up here at Cornell that is farming willow for the production of ethanol. Both of these materials are in the 10:1 ratio or better for energy output to input.


Other fantastic energy products are available such as the Jatropha plant for the production of bio-diesel. Jatropha is ideal for large scale production of bio-diesel and contains 30% more oil than Soybeans. Jatropha trees last 50 or so years and thrive in poor, arid soil conditions. Perhaps the lowly Jatropha tree can spark new cleaner diesel technology that can replace much of the gasoline powered vehicles that we use today.


While the world looks for a way to shift from dino juice, there will be hype and people trying to capitalize on the situation. In the end, the solution will become apparent - because its probably already out there.


WP

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 10:12:38 AM by wind pirate »

Bruce S

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Re: CORN
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2007, 10:15:34 AM »
TomW;

   I stand corrected. When it comes to corn subsidies.

I should've been more specific. The subsidies are for not grwoing stuf on the land, which includes corn, maize, soybeans, etc.


About the beef thing. I agree, I go to my cuzz and buy it directly from him. I know where the cow was raised and where it was killed and who butchered it.

Other than that , meat/poultry/pork comes from locals close to here and locally rasied. That way if I get bad food I can talk directly to the grower.


The book looks like a good read, I'll put it on my list.


Thanks

Bruce S

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 10:15:34 AM by Bruce S »
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jimjjnn

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2007, 11:20:01 AM »
The leftovers from Ethanol production is a very good feedstock for cattle as it is high in protein and as I understand is a more digestable product with less methane Farting.  :))
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 11:20:01 AM by jimjjnn »

Norm

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2007, 12:38:24 PM »
Well actually field corn can be people corn...

some of the best corn I ever ate was field corn

....Later on ...dried out like popcorn....didn't

seem to pop very well....'tho   LOL !

          ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 12:38:24 PM by Norm »

Bruce S

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2007, 01:33:31 PM »
WP;

  I agree, corn prices are going up mostly due to the Hype. And I agree it is not the best solution for making Ethanol, even short leaved tobacco has been proven to be a better ( meaning higher sugar content) than corn.


Once the hype dies down the productions will continue and the corn prices will come back down to pre-hype prices.

The bio-diesel region is one of the main reasons so many Palm oil bearing tree are being planted.

The good news on the framing front is that most of them in the boot heal of MO are not buying into debt hell.

The corn route is to me, a good short term stop-gap measure.

 The other side of the coin for the US anyway, is the higher number of people being employeed to run these productions.

However for someone to just say is it stupid without proof is, well lets say as bad as giving out unsafe advice.


 The numbers a methods I have or give out are ones I use and give free and are safe enough for me to use in my house, not in a shed but in the house, which currenlty houses 1 wife, 1 teenage daughter, 3 cats, 1 old dog, and various rodents, snakes, fleas etc...

 For those who wish to continue this !!

Again, we seem to have stolen the thread from a genuine poster> for that I will not post to this thread any further out of respect for his accomplisments!!


Bruce S

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 01:33:31 PM by Bruce S »
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hiker

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2007, 02:35:51 PM »
brazil--there on the right track...........

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/americas/10brazil.html?ex=1302321600%26en=03adc82c67600388%2
6ei=5088%26partner=rssnyt%26emc=rss
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 02:35:51 PM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

TomW

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 02:56:25 PM »
Bruce;



Again, we seem to have stolen the thread from a genuine poster> for that I will not post to this thread any further out of respect for his accomplisments!!




Exactly why we discourage this "go look at it elsewhere" posts. Most people don't even go and look but respond to the comments in the story.


If it were a Diary folks likely would have stayed on topic better. And if not the owner could request removal of off topic comments.


I tried to institute some on topic guidelines for stories but too many "censorship" complaints killed that idea.


Oh, well this gets us further off the topic. sigh


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 02:56:25 PM by TomW »

Bruce S

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2007, 03:13:29 PM »
TomW;

   Two things, first and foremost!! You and the other -edtrs have my utmost compassion, once, while one was having a melt down or needed a break/coffee vacation/holiday :-).....

I offerred to step in and help. One of the dumbest emails I've sent in years :-D

I take it back !! I don't want to, I would be banned the first day in the first hour...


2nd Thanks for the laugh, NO not about the go here thing but the Humor of the last line :-D I needed it.


As long as people speak & write with respect to others and no get into the whole name calling crap; I can discuss this stuff all day ( except when I exceed my posting times :-/ ) long.

When I post I try to make sure what I put up here is true and proveable <-sp? and hopefully have never name called some one without them starting it first.


I hadn't planned on posting any further but just wanted to say thanks for your due dilagance.


Cheers

Bruce S


 

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 03:13:29 PM by Bruce S »
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randy727

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2007, 05:20:13 PM »
Hi! I'm the original poster.  I didn't mean for this thread to go so far.  I would have put my idea in the main body but I thought people would go to the NASA Tech Briefs site and see other ideas that would interest them.  Moldy corn that is not good for feed or seed or food could be used for this idea.  This "Producers Gas" has been successful in powering internal combustion engines in the past, I thought it might have some merit in the future.


Randy727

of Randysworkshop.com

« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 05:20:13 PM by randy727 »

finnsawyer

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2007, 09:11:57 AM »
I don't see much 'idle' land when traveling through Wisconsin, and I bet there isn't much in Iowa either.  You are talking about more than doubling the land that is currently devoted to corn production in the entire Midwest corn belt.  The way land is devoted to agriculture production has developed over time as farmers found the best crops for their areas.  Trying to force corn production in those areas may not make sense.  One can grow corn up here, but it's not the best crop.  Potatoes may be a better crop.  While it could be possible to make such adjustments, the land owners may not agree.  Unfortunately, potato land up here is being split and may never be used for farming again.  In any case, you still have to grow the potatoes, wheat, beans, and other crops that people need.  And yes, let's not forget diary.  We've already seen a run-up in the cost of milk.  Where the price of milk goes will be a good indicator of whether you are right about this only being a one year shock.  While the residue from the ethanol production may be a good cattle feed, it may not be located near the diary farms.  The cows will still need hay.  You can't get away from that.  Diary farms could work here, but I doubt you'd ever see an ethanol from corn plant.  I think this mandate is going to result in such a run-up in the cost of food that it will fall apart before it ever reaches fruition.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 09:11:57 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2007, 09:25:45 AM »
I figured we'd hear from you.  I felt a bit guilty about the off topic comment until I realized this was in Rants and Opinions, which sort of frees up the tread.  So, the question is, "Why was it in Rants and Opinions?"
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 09:25:45 AM by finnsawyer »

randy727

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2007, 05:54:21 AM »
Actually, I thought it was wonderful that my posting caused that many people to chime in with their opinions.  I believe each of them had valid reasons for their thoughts and beliefs.  That is one of the reasons why I love this group.  I have dealt with many different types of people in my day, but none are better than these "windmillers".


Randy747

« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 05:54:21 AM by randy727 »

nothing to lose

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2007, 01:14:11 PM »
Sorry but I think most of what I read is wrong. Here's why!


I used to live in WI. and traveled it allot, I saw lots of wooded area's all over the place, all those woods are available land! ALL of the state was probably woods at one time or another so the woods DO count as land.

Much of Ohio is corn area rather they plant it or not! Lots of woods that could be farm land there also. What about all those millions of acres we hear about forest fires burning down every year, more available land!

Tons of land here in MO., and AR. not being used for anything, could be farming corn on it, instead I see a 1,000 acres get bulldozed and used for cattle grazing instead.

Beef prices just keep raising anyway, even though they are mostly feed on free grass.

 Went to the sale barn the other day, grazing cattle prices were up, not fed corn so corn prices don't matter there.

 Grass is not free by the way, it cost money for lots of stuff for grazing lands, FUEL is a big part of the costs! It takes fuel to fertilize the pastures running the tractors, cost of fertilizer is up. Sometimes the pastures need brush hogged to cut down unwanted tree growth, more fuel!

 Lot's of good farm or pasture lands around here are growing up with small trees now because the lands NOT being used, just sitting there growing wild!


We do need to keep wooded areas and not cut them all down of course, but try telling that to people building such great things as golf courses and cemataries.

 What is the percentage of people that play golf? What is the percentage of people that drive cars? There you go, lots of available land right there! LOL


Corn costs are only a small part of the cost of milk! That Milk price is no indicator at all!

 My daughters boyfriend is part of a Dairy Farm family. They pay more for Gasolene, more for electric, cost more for fuel to have corn delivered or drive to buy it, etc.. etc..

It costs more for everything now just to live, so their only income is the dairy farm, where do you think they will get the money to live on at the higher cost of living? PROPANE has gone from $0.79 a few years ago to about $1.85 now, price of corn has nothing to do with cost of heating their house, but the cost of the milk is what pays for the propane! They have to get the money to pay to heat the house this winter, that comes from the sales of the milk!


 So the milking machines use the same amount of electric today as last year, but the rates just went up here so now it costs more to milk the cows and refrigerate the milk etc.. Nothing at all to do with corn cost!

 I don't know how the milk is transported exactly but that truck will use fuel that costs allot more than a couple years ago, also I think it's refrigerated in transport so more fuel costs also.


 If they drive the 40mile trip to buy feed, that gas for the truck now costs around $3 a gallon compared to $1.30 a few years ago. I don't know how much gas they use but it costs over 2 times as much for it! If they pay to have the feed delivered then they are still paying higher fuel costs, also the drivers pay has gone up, cost more to maintain the trucks, etc.. etc.. so delivery charges are UP!!


Concrete has NOTHING to do with corn, I just got a estimate for a truckload. Costs over $5 a yard MORE now and delivery charge is allot higher also.


Back to milk, Ok they graze the dairy cows allot more than they feed corn. I checked the price of corn here just now. For what I paid about $7 100lbs for a couple years ago it now costs about $9 100lb. A big $2 increase in corn costs compared to $1.70 increase in gasolene! Guess what, YES it takes them more gasolene to run a dairy farm  than it does corn!!! They may use diesel also but that's the same as gasolene as far as cost increase!


Now why has that corn raised in price $2 100lb. Could it be all the other increases in costs effect that also, not just corn prices based on supply? The farm store has to pay more for electric now with the rate increases, the employees have been getting raises so it cost more for workers, it costs more for fuel for the trucks, parts cost more for repairs etc.. ect..

 I just checked the costs on some steel parts I used to use from same farm store, they went up $1-$4 each depending which part, so the increase costs of steel parts is 50%-200% compared to the increased cost of corn which was $2.

Steel itself has nothing to do with corn of course but comparing parts cost increases, steel parts UP $1-$4 compared to corn UP $2. A farm does need repair parts at times for various things, add that to cost of milk also.


Potatoes were mentioned, OK, used to be $1 for a 10lb bag of potatoes but now over $2! I also like Onions, was $0.99 for 3lb bag but now about $1.80 for same bag.

What does this have to do with corn, not much!


Figure in all the things like Gas, diesel, propane, potatoes, onions, etc... that have MORE than doubled in costs, then look at milk prices! MILK has NOT doubled in price yet, though it's heading that way now and maybe allot more!

 All these MILK farmers use Gas, diesel, propane, potatoes, onions, etc... and though they been paying double the costs for such things the cost of the milk has not doubled to keep up! None of this has to do with corn prices or alky fuel, just if the dairy farmers want to live equally well today as they did 2 years ago the prices are going to have to go up on Milk, the cows don't give more milk just because it costs 2 times as much to live!!


As for corn prices, again figure in all the costs of fuel etc..!!

 Corn does not just grow well all by itself and walk to market!

With fuel WAY over double what it used to be, it costs far more to grow anything on a farm using tractors and other equipment on Gasolene or Diesel. Corn oil and Alky used for fuel instead of DINO can help bring down those fuel costs for farming. Bringing down the fuel costs can also help keep prices lower, though all the other costs are still higher, like repairs or new tractors etc..

 Have you priced a small diesel tractor recently? Their just plain nuts!!

I may be getting a free small junk Kabota 4 wheel drive tractor, I looked to see what a new one like it might cost, I almost had a heart attack!

 If your living comes from farming corn, that corn has to pay all those high costs of farming, also has to keep up with the higher cost of living which is going up way to fast with the higher costs of fuels driving it!


And CORN is not the only thing you can make alky fuel from, there are many other things, most people only think corn if you mention alky fuel to them. Plain sugar works well also.

Sugar beats are supposed to be good also. Some types of wild growing plants are decent. If it's high in sugar it could probably be used.

 Except for the desert stuff grows wild everywhere, just need to find the right stuff or plant it. Plant it and it will grow. Plant the right crops for the area.


 Another thing is looking into plant scraps. Sure ears of corn may be good, but is there any useable scraps? What about those husks, the stocks, stuff that gets thrown out or plowed under normally. Is there any useable sugars in those stocks and leaves that is not food?

« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 01:14:11 PM by nothing to lose »

finnsawyer

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2007, 08:52:04 AM »
You seem to want to blame all the increases in costs on the cost of oil (fuel).  Well, that's fine, but that does not deal with the ramifications of more than doubling the amount of land planted to corn.  And all land was not created equal.  Just because land is not currently planted to corn does not mean that would be the best use for the land.  Where I live the land is loam with sandy areas mixed in.  This would be suitable for potatoes.  I believe the climate works against corn.  South of here in the Pelkie area the land is clay.  Not suitable for potatoes, and maybe not good for corn, but does work for diary (hay).  I will question your statement about a diary farm using more fuel than corn, since each cow is fed grain during milking twice a day.  And each cow needs fodder either from pasture (inefficient use of land) or from hay.  The grain could be oats, and one man I knew did only that and raised his own oats, but that takes land too.  With oats you get less butter fat.  Also, beef cattle are typically finished off in feed lots on grain.


Right now we are in a severe drought and the fields, except for the birdsfoot trefoil, are burnt brown.  No second hay crop, not that I get one anyway.  Without irrigation the potato and corn crops are likely to be low.


I don't believe cutting down the forests to plant corn would make sense either, as much of that forest land would not be suitable for corn anyway.  Besides, you then eliminate a sustainable and valuable product as well as foreclosing the use of waste wood for a more reasonable approach to ethanol production if and when they can develop an economical way of doing it.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 08:52:04 AM by finnsawyer »

hydrosun

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Re: NASA design contest
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2007, 01:58:58 PM »
Like a lot of things the value of renewable fuel depends on scale and who is benefiting from the production of the fuel. If we convert all our farmland and all the forests in Brazil and other tropical areas to create fuel for our cars we still won't have as much as is produced by fossil fuel now. So at some point we will be reducing the use of energy.  When Bush proposed more ethanol and using switchgrass as a feedstock for future fuel I thought maybe he was finally seeing that fossil fuels had a limit and was looking to the future.  but if you look at the players in the ethonal game you see the same big corporate winners as today.   Most of the profit in agriculture today go to the big grain trading companies, ADM, and Cargil etc. so when the federal goverment subsidizes farms it really is an indirect payment to the large corporations. So the ethanol subsidize go into the same pockets. No wonder BP, chevron and others are in support, to get in line for the same gravy train. In Brazil soybeans for biodiesel and sugar cane for ethanol is taking up a larger share of farmland so more forests are being cleared for ranches. It turns wild amazon rainforests into inputs to worldwide  corporate profit growth. And fewer jobs are left for people than if they were growing food for themselves. right now most of the sugar cane is harvested by hand by low wage workers so the affluent can drive. If it were mechanized there would be even less benefit for the people displaced.


In the US  growing corn for ethanol gains little over the fuel needed to grow and process the corn. If it wasn't for the subsidies it wouldn't be profitable. And it does't take into account the loss of soil that makes it less than renewable over the long turn. Using the cellulose in crops or wood would give a better energy return but would rob even more organic matter from the soil making it exhauted even quicker.

What we are looking at by turning to biofuels is turning more of the earths surface into human managed stripmines that will eventually turn into deserts.

No-one has ever farmed continously without returning the crop residues to the land.

So , again the bottom line is we will eventually have to reduce the use of energy, food, materials, to the rate at which it is surplus  to the rest of the ecosystem. So either the per person (or large percentage of the population) will use less, or we will have a much lower population.

   In the end biofuels as is proposed now will just prolong the age of  protroleum for the favored few a bit longer.

Chris

« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 01:58:58 PM by hydrosun »