An idea for Otherpower

[TheCasualTraveler]

     I have an idea that I hope this forum will if not endorse at least consider. I have not been around long so I'm not sure how far back this goes but as of late I have seen quite a bit of frustration manifesting itself in bitter exchanges. Frustration by some of our administrators, by some very knowledgeable posters and frustration from what you refer to as Newbies. Being a "newbie" myself I would like to share my perspective.

     This forum is all about knowledge and the sharing of it. To a newcomer it is the holy grail of RE. There is so much information on here I'm sure no one person is familiar with it all. Unfortunately a newcomer does not always find it easy to find what they are looking for. For example, starting at the front page of the forum there is no link to the wind power terms glossary. I know that there is one because I found it by accident. When I tried to find it again it took me awhile so I book marked it. I'm sure many newcomers are unaware it exists.

     Then there are the FAQ's. This section is tiny compared to the amount of information in this forum that could be in here. What is in here is sort of scattered about. A topic will give some info but then you have to click for more details. That takes you to a posting with some more info but then you need to continue on to a new link to get more in depth. Some times the link or links will take you to a thread that weaves all around your question but never answers it. Often in a thread several conflicting opinions are expessed leaving the newcomer wondering, "so, who was right?" Directing a newcomer to a thread like that for an answer can be very frustrating.

     Now, for the hard part. What I'm doing is criticizing. No way to sugar coat it, I'm pointing the finger at some very generous sharing people and all I ask is Please, know that I have the utmost respect and gratitude to you and all I want is to try to make something great even better.

     How? I was really hoping you would ask. This could be a really fun project that involves everyone. It would help newcomers and experienced alike. Rewrite the FAQs page and make it must read. BUT, make it easier to read than it is now. Start with the most basic of questions and let the members of this forum write the FAQs. Example, Admin. Posts the first topic, [How many magnets do I need and what size?] From there the ghurds, finsawyers, Flux's and woofers and others post what should go in here. Admin condenses it in an easy to read FAQ then everyone critiques it. The experts say what is wrong or what is missing, the newcomers say what they don't understand. You ignore the info like gauss that the newcomer doesn't need and stick with just the basics. You could go into greater detail in separate FAQs and the glossary. Then when it's done it gets posted to a new, easy to navigate FAQ section and you go on. Now I know this could be time consuming but that's what is already happening in the forum, time being consumed by repetitive basic questions and it would only take maybe a dozen well written FAQs covering magnets and rotors, coils and stators and wind and blades to really start making a difference. And you can build from there. It just has to be easy to navigate so a newcomer is not lost in a maze of threads and links.

     Well, I probably should have kept my mouth shut but there it is. If you would, remember one last thing. On the Home Page of Otherpower are the words, We are a group of alternative energy enthusiasts who want to spread the message that "It's EASY to make your own power FROM SCRATCH."

Well, it's easy to make your own power once you know how.

 Let's make it east to Know How.

[jimjjnn]

My thinking on this is to redirect all the newbies to the Otherpower website as most questions can be answered by reading and looking at the pictures there.

I learned more there and found it very educational and fun.

I would plan on several days of reading as it is very comprehensive and thorough.

The guys in Ft Collins have made it very interesting with all their projects both successful and their failures

I consider the site to be a MUST READ for all Newbies

[jimjjnn]

Just a PS for my previous comment.

Check the LINKS on the otherpower site. A lot of folks that have done much for this forum are there.

[jimjjnn]

Dang.

Just click on otherpower.com at top of forum page to view the fun place. Those pages will say it all. When you have questions, you will have a good knowledge of what you are doing

[alibro]

I agree with the last comment, I built my first wind turbine after reading through all the diarys from the Otherpower site. At the time I didn't even know this forum existed.  I may not have done everything right the first time (or second time for that matter) but there is more than enough information there to get you started.

Alibro

[jonas302]

Yes there is  a ton of info on Dan's site it took me weeks to read it all it answers a ton of questions without various opinions It seems like a lot of people want to reinvent the wind generator before they build on or even understand how it works

I agree with Casual Traver people should be directed there when they sign up it took me a few weeks to realize it was there the forum is so interesting i didn't look around much.

[Capt Slog]

CT makes some valid points.  Perhaps the FAQs should have a big header that says "You might find what you want in here, but we're afraid that there is no substitute for research".  

It's EASY to make your own power FROM SCRATCH

The main problem as I see it is that most people coming on here as newbies just don't appreciate the scale of the trial and error that's gone into the previous work, and that is why they (we, I have to include myself) ask the stupid questions at the start.  In my case, I was always trying to make something smaller than I saw on here, and failed in every respect to understand which aspects of the designs I could scale down (I don't think I asked any questions about it by the way, it was soemthing I found on my own). But I can understand the frustration that you must feel from questions such as " I want to make a wind turbine, what magnets do I need?"

CT also raises the point that a question will often get several different opinions, I can't see any way around this, and have to say that sometimes it's helpful sometimes it's not.  The problem seems to stem from a very human trait of each person wishing to push their own design/agenda. Unfortunatly, at the same time they fail to answer the question which was asked.

[Bruce S]

One other item that CT brings up is the some time short tempers that crop up when people ask questions.

First CT , you bring up very valid points ALL of them.

Don't be too worried that the Admins are going to lock you out or admonish you for speaking your mind on these points.

You posted this in the correct area and that at times can be one of the items the Admins , I sure, get tired of correcting. Resectioning, posted in wrong area, etc.

I too in the past have been short tempered in answering some posts that clearly should've been researched first. I can certainly understand how people can get tired answering the same questions over & over & over again.

Perhaps you're correct in that a better way to find the FAQs or maybe a "sticky" note can be put on here somewhere for people to click on the "otherpower" link and have a good days read before posting questions and such.

I read on the Otherpower site and as much of the old postings long before I even posted my first question. The old forum had less cross words BTW.

By reading the other posts here, you can see that your points are very well taken.

Keep asking and have fun:-)

Cheers

Bruce S

[electrondady1]

one thing that is at the root of a few of the problems is the success of the forum itself.

i joined about four years ago,

there were at that time 1200 members world wide.

i thought that was huge .

i think there are over 7000  now .

it only makes sense the volume of "dumb ass questions" would go up.

as well , i am thinking the "old timers"

 miss the original atmosphere and camaraderie.

maybe that's why they sometimes get so grumpy.

there is as much expertise and theoretical knowledge here as a university.

and as many "students"

i want the forum to continue as i have much more to learn

but i feel bad when a new person asks a question or posts a project and gets smacked.

[TomW]

edady;

Closer to 9800 users now, maybe more, I haven't checked real recently.

Cheers.

TomW

[finnsawyer]

Well, since this forum seems to be directed toward actually building things, maybe the place to start would be for everyone who has actually built an alternator to provide as much detail as they can about their project.  This is sort of a pet peeve of mine in that other than perhaps Hugh's book no easily accessed actual examples of successful and copyable alternator builds seem to exist.  Then the experts can try to sort through and condense the material.  Note that this leaves me off the hook.  He, he.

[jimjjnn]

Otherpower has complete plans for construction on their website now.

You can download the manual.

[jimjjnn]

OOPS !!

I can't find the link to building the turbines.

My err. Sorry !!

[TheCasualTraveler]

Let me take a moment to reiterate the jist of my post.

     I'm NOT saying that Otherpower is lacking anything as far as information is concerned. I agree, it's all here. I'm saying a newcomer often finds it hard to find that data. Not that it isn't there, just that it's often hard to find. Even oldtimers can tell you that a topic is all covered but they sometimes can't quite find where.

     All I'm saying is a reorganizing, supplementing and sometimes rewriting the FAQs to cover all the basics, explained the way a novice can understand would be a fantastic tool and save frustration all the way around. And I think making it a forum wide project, by using the accumulated knowledge of all the experts here would insure that it is the best guide on the planet, bar none. And, I think it would be fun!

[TomW]

Traveler;

I urge you to go proactive on this FAQ idea. Write it up and submit it for critique. Several folks have offered to actually do this, yet it has not actually  been created.

I think you will find it to be a daunting task. In my experience over the years, most folks do not read them, even the good ones. Its the drive through mentality of the world today. Folks seem to want it served up fast and free and feel it is their right to get the information with little or no expenditure of effort.

Sadly, most FAQs are pretty lame, including what passes for the current one here.

Maybe I should post some threads like "What should folks know about Batteries" and everyone can post their idea of what should be included? If it actually works then we could shift it into the FAQ area and make it required reading before posting a question. And, if the question is covered in the FAQ we make the question Read Only and suggest they read the FAQ and post specific questions on things the do not understand. All of that will add to the workload and Kurt, Wooferhound and myself get paid a salary and not by the hour. Yeah Right.

Anyway, open to ideas and submissions.

There you have it, the opportunity to help make it work better here. The ball is in your court now.

Cheers.

TomW

[TheCasualTraveler]

OK, Tonight I will write up a couple trial FAQ's for critiqe and approval. To put ALL of RE into FAQs would be daunting but I really think the basics could be covered without too much trouble. I really think this approach will work if it gets support. I would also like to put it on a web page so you can see how I would arrange it. Thanks for the encouragment.

[ghurd]

"I have a windmill and some loads.  What brand and model inverter should I buy?"

"I have a used solar panel that makes 22V.  How fast can I charge the battery my brother-in-law gave me?"

"I have a lot of solar panels.  Is a fat diode too big?  It is the kind with a stripe on one end."

"I have a lot of used batteries. What TSR should the blades of my blue windmill be?"

"I have a lot of stuff and a good site. Should I build a windmill or solar panel?"

"I have a rectangular solar panel, and it is a simple idea because I only expect to run a water heater for a hotel."

"I have a friend, who knows a guy, who said somebody told him... "

Ohm's Law and Watt's Law would be a good start.

G-

[DamonHD]

When I ran an early UK ISP many moons (getting on for 16 years) ago I put together a well-produced 100 page free manual sent by post to every customer explaining everything from how the Net worked to settings for all the then-common modems to troubleshooting, good places to look at, etc.

I have a copy in front of me, so the workmanship was OK...

Basically 100 pages of lovingly-crafted, hand-indexed, cross-referenced, relevant and ABSOLUTELY PERTINENT 'FAQ's.

Some of our **king 'customers' couldn't even be bothered to open the **king thing to the contents or index to begin to help themselves.

It was one of the early lessons in my life that I'm not cut out for customer service (though I did have some pleasurable revenge 'firing' some especially lazy customers by phone).

So, not to put you off totally, but FAQs are rarely read with the diligence and love and effort that they are assembled IMHO, and (Google) search is a wonderful gift that people should teach themselves to use.

If they cannot be bothered to use (Google) search, which frankly I have made a fortune out of as a consultant over the years, then really they are stealing my/your oxygen and adding to global warming and should cease breathing out forthwith.

Editors: given that I'm hyperventilating, should this be deleted or moved to 'rants'?

Rgds

Damon

[gotwind2]

True words Ghurd.

Ohms law is a great basic knowledge to have, and reasonably easy to understand.

My attempt at explaining and keeping it simple here.

http://www.gotwind.org/circuit.htm

May I also suggest the old fashion technology, also known as books, not PDF's.

Anything by Hugh Piggott or Paul Gipe will make good bed time reading, I'm sure there are other great RE authors.

Here in the U.K some are available free at the library.

Ben.

[bob golding]

there you go dont even have to think about it.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/ohmslaw.htm

[RogerAS]

Hey Guys n Gals,

I honestly feel the board software is a big part of the problem. Here's why.

The software doesn't have a private message feature:

When the noob questions hit the board it gets all cluttered up. Old timers, like me, get frusterated. Tempers flare. Bad vibes all around. Canned responses could be sent, via "private messages" from our tireless mods and Admins. The postings could be dumped with explination in the first few lines of the canned responses. These PM's could be filled with links to the FAQ's and other vital info. No wierd antispam email links needed or allowed. Many messages could be done right through the software and avoid the need to send email ar all.

The software doesn't list contributors posting numbers:

I am not suggesting this for vanity reasons. The posting numbers shown beside our "handle" indicates venteran status and contribution activity. This would allow noobs to quickly see that he responder has a track history. Persons such as Flux, and others, should be recognized as the valued posters they are.

The software doesn't allow users to easily find threads:

The search feature may be old hat for us regulars, but to noobs that really don't know what to search for the issue looms large. If there was a sidebar to narrow searches this would be much easier.

The software doesn't update:

As a new thread appears here it is then scrolled down as newer threads appear. If the threads were bumped back to the top as newer postings were added many of these issues would vanish. When the fron page has 2 or 3 threads about home made solar panels and the one someone is interested in is not immediately seen most times a new thread is started. This just creates a mess of postings about the same thing over and over. It seems it would be better if a thread about home made solar panels grew to several pages rather than being scattered and buried across the board.

The software doesn't have a easy to use interface:

The front page is a mess. Rather that displaying a list of random threads it should be a directory showing main topics and the latest posting within that topic area. When a person is interested in home made solar panels there should be a section on PV's with all threads listed and held there.

The software doesn't have a make donation link:

Many many boards across the net have a make donation option right up front. This should be distinct from the magnet sales on otherpower.com. Proceeds could go to actualy paying our mods for the work they do, and to keep the software and servers up to date. I would make such a contribution to the board if it were more user friendly.

The software formatting method is as clunky as it gets:

Most forums these daysallow the user to highlight a given piece of text, click a formatting button, and the tags are automatically added. Here we have to type in the tags and then preview to make sure were have not made a syntax error.

The software doesn't allow for subscribing to a thread via email:

If one is really interesting in keep updated ona particular thread here one must check back over and over to see if there has been additions. Other forums allow the user to select a subscription option, or deselect subscribe later.

I suggest vBulletin. A quick example of this software in action can be see at;

http://www.rantsnraves.org/index.php

Many many forums across the net use this software an it works great.

That's my take on things.

[TomW]

Roger;

All valid points! Not sure if software changes will be implemented, but research is under way on options to make the board more useful to everyone. A big hurdle will be transferring nearly 10,000 [yes TEN THOUSAND] users to new software as well as importing the resource itself.

Right now Scoop is held together with baling wire and spit and the spit is drying out and the wire was rusty to start.

With the current user base and entombed content it will be an interesting change to say the least.

Lots of headaches being sure folks get to keep their ID and that the wealth of information is archived for future use. We have some sharp folks who want to see this resource remain viable long term. Ultimately it is Dans decision what to do, if anything. I know for sure and for certain Dan would rather be building turbines that thinking about the forum so it may not be very high on the priority list.

Just an update of sorts. Lots of behind the scenes work being done on it now.

Cheers.

TomW

[picmacmillan]

hi casual...just my 2 cents as a guy who has been around a bit....i found that sometimes posts that u see, end up being not a good design for instance....if we put everything in one spot you may try to emmulate a certain design when you start(and that is encouraged),only to find out later that the poster was just really excited about his or her development, only later to find there was a fatal flaw...i know when i started i tried to make everything bigger and better,..only to spend my little bit of money i had needlessly...most push u in a certain direction to hopefully keep you from making the same costly mistakes we all have done in the past...so i find like old archive posts are not  the best ones personally...another thing is our technology moves increasingly forward..so what we all tested and developed 6 months ago..isnt necessarily the way we would move today??..so what i would do as a newbie would be to first off read everything i could get my hands on..i have tons of c.d's and post from years ago including my own...then i focus on what my needs are and ask somebody awho knows to help...they will help!  they want you to do your homework but they will help,,oh and lastly...i was the new guy once upon a time and i thought admin would chew me a new one....but over time..i proved to them that i was a guy who truely is thankful for the opportunity to learn about alternative energy.. and i am indebted to them for that.....they are all now my freinds...you have to remember this is scyber space...we meet all kins...but if you really are here to do what we do..one day the gates will open and your one of the good ole boys ...keep up the good work..ask , ask ,and then ask ..take care..pickster

[ghurd]

I did not sign up for that one, so maybe my issues are addressed for members.

I check another board sometimes and it frustrates me.  I can't even post a photo without a bunch of tags I don't understand, that link to a different website.

Do you know what this pertains to, or should I copy/paste - quote everything?

Did you see I responded to you by clicking 'recent activity'?  If I have limited time, I can see if someone asked/responded to something I said.  The other board I check makes me wade through every post, until I stop looking.

I like the 'hot list'.  If I don't have time to look for 2 weeks, the hot list shows what I want to know.  I don't want to search 2 weeks worth of emails.

Many people don't want private messages.  If they do, they can put their email next to their name.

And it was my understanding taking discussions into private was sort of frowned upon.

Wasn't it Nando who always did that?  Then bragged about it, and never posted what he actually did or how it was done, except to give hints and say how perfect it worked.

A page has to start somewhere.  If someone wants to see only solar, they can click "solar" at the top.  If they want to see everything, they don't have to click 15 different buttons one at a time.

Fieldlines might be clunky, but at least I can figure it out!  And it's the only one.

No.  I am certainly not software inclined.

G-

[TheCasualTraveler]

     Having spent a lot of time thinking on this I realize the problem. It is my own (and possibly other newcomers) disorganization that is often to blame for our frustration.

     I first found Otherpower 2 years ago looking for how to build a generator for a water wheel. I started bookmarking every link I could and reading everything I could find. Since that time I have a wealth of information scattered about so I don't even know what it all is. If I had it to do over I would have not only bookmarked things, but organized and renamed the marks so I knew exactly why I saved them. I would have treated this as I would a college course. I would have printed out every good diagram I found, collected every math formula and saved every calculator I found on the web. Thats what your all trying to tell me about research while all the time I'm thinking, "I did research, plenty of research!" Problem was I was sloppy and looking to somewhere else to make it all nice and neat instead of organizing it myself. Organizing your research may be the most valuable advice to a newcomer, but if you put that in a FAQ it probably wouldn't make any differance anyway. So, nuff said. Otherpower is fine as is. I was wrong.

     Well, despite my self I can at least say that I have built a working machine that is very easy to make changes to and I am learning alot. Today has been a good wind day and in fact it has been charging non stop for over a day now. I know that I can build a second one and it will work and be even better. I have a lot of ideas for small wind machines and plan to do a few more. Thanks all for your patience and help.

     Oh, and like Ed says, I'm having fun.

[DamonHD]

This is incidentally once of the reasons that almost any uni degree or similar 'higher' qualification, regardless of exact subject, is of interest and value to an employer.  IMHO...

If the course was any good then a major part of its value will have been showing the person doing it the value of organisation and plodding care and persistence (even if no one involved realised it at the time).  Just being smart and/or having a flash of genius inspiration and/or even luck isn't enough.

So, if you were, you don't need to feel bad about proving that all over again.  I'm sure that I shall have to remind myself the hard way a few more times yet.

And yes, this is a great place.  One day soon maybe I'll be a "grown-up" too...

Rgds

Damon

PS. Thread-hijack alert: man coming tomorrow for me to sign on dotted line for my grid-tie PV system.  Not a total hijack since a bit of careful write-up and record-keeping and study may have saved me as much of 20% of the project cost...

[SparWeb]

TomW,

I was curious about the upcoming 10,000th user milestone, so I did some poking around.  I found that although nearly 9800 users have been set up, only about 1100 remain active.  

Index of /images/scimages

Where did everybody else go?

[TomW]

Spar;

I found a user #9695 with files:

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/9695/

Remember, computers list numbers in a non sequential manner [999 is further down the list than 9695]. It might be they only get a user files directory if they upload?

Obviously, registered does not mean active.

Cheers.

TomW