The truth. Can you handle it?

[rossw]

Not withstanding the modern view of "I found it on the internet, it must be true!", not EVERYTHING you find on the internet is true, accurate or complete.

One problem is that if someone posts a comment that is wrong (sometimes dangerously so), the comment will remain probably forever. Others will find it, some may quote it, a few may even act on it.

I think we have a responsbility to those people to NOT publish stuff thats wrong, especially dangerously wrong, and where we find content that is wrong, it should be annotated for those who may stumble on it later and take it as "true".

I'm sure none of us would seriously suggest making an electric fence for example, by putting the "hot" wire from the mains straight onto a strand of a fence, or suggesting you can stop a 17' mill at several hundred RPM "by hand, as long as you're wearing decent leather gloves"! The difference is, we all know thats dangerous. Other things offered here may be just as dangerous, but not immediately recognised as such.

[gizmo]

I agree, some practices posted on forums are downright wrong or dangerous.

The problem is, how to separate "Fact" and "Opinion".

Example:

Its a fact 240vac can kill you.

Its my opinion VAWT's are usefull.

Now someone else may dissagree with passion with my last statement, so it cant be stated as "fact", but "opinion".

Glenn  

[Batdude]

Are you referring to a suggestion I made?

If so I would like to know what it was so it doesn't happen again.

Thank you.

Batdude

[wdyasq]

Ross,

I would be for banning certain members of the 'community'. In a real community one can see the pile of beer cans and empty whiskey bottles or smell the smoke. Here, one can only read.

The ignorant are at a distinct advantage if they are trying to learn.

The ignorant are at a distinct advantage if they are spouting manure as few will challenge. Those who do challenge will be as likely be attacked quicker than the purveyor of manure.

I figure this 'hobby' is expensive and dangerous enough without stupid and maybe dangerous 'factoids' that are unchallenged.

This goes for the political end too. How many have researched enough to determine if the 'carbon trading' is a scam or a great idea .... HINT AlGore 'advised' his father on the Interstate highway system, invented the  Internet and believes so much in carbon credits he purchases them himself (and from himself).

I could rant for days and be left in a daze .....

Ron

[rossw]

Are you referring to a suggestion I made?

Sorry to dissappoint - but I don't even recall reading any of your comments - but hey, if the cap fits!

IF you have a guilty conscience, might I suggest you remember that for future posts. If you are unsure or in any doubt of the validity of a claim - open another browser and spend a moment researching it! Like Glenn says later - FACT vs OPINION.

Many will argue your opinion, few can argue a demonstratable fact.

[BruceDownunder]

  This is the way I see things.----

 You read a posting and try to understand the authors meaning  by his wording. I generally keep my mouth shut unless I have had experience with the subject. Thats most of the time.

Now when it comes to some sort of safety discussion about towers ,,dangling pieces of steel piping ,guy anchors , you know ,,where little ,or big kids, can get hurt , then thats when I ,sort of offer an opinion..

This is a friendly forum and lots of us are just ordinary folk tinkering about in our workshop trying to get a windmill up or a cicuit to work. And ,hey , some of us are afraid to ask questions ,because the big bad wolf will pounce-you know the ,the buggers that have never done anything ,but know everything...Sorry..

Anyhow, I'm all for safety and keeping the forum a very nice and safe place where we can generate(pun) a good feeling within us and learn from each other.

If you get pissed off with a posting ,,let it go , move on and think that you are correct or he is correct and be with it ..

I talk to a lot of the 'posters" everyday on the "IRC" ,we discuss things relevant to fieldlines,Thebackshed .They are all friendly,come and join us ..

But most of all take advice from the guys that know,and play safe..

Bruce

[Flux]

I don't think you can stop this. The internet is a wonderful thing but it does have limitations.

As someone who has been playing with wind power for nearly 60 years I have seen wonderful advances in the last few years, mainly brought about by sharing of ideas on the internet. For about 50 years I was working alone and probably working on similar lines to many others and we probably made the same mistakes and learned from them.

In the old days the only chance we had was to read all the available material, which was very limited, and try to think why machines designed for other uses weren't always very suitable for wind power.

The down side of the internet as I see it is that everyone can become an expert over night, which is fine if based on the useful information but not so good if based on silly ideas.

Probably the thing that worries me most is nothing to do with the internet but a serious lack of basic understanding of how things work in general. I can only comment from what I see around me and it may be local to the UK but modern education is not giving the younger generation a fair chance. Fundamentals are not taught in school and without them it may be perfectly possible to pass exams with multiple choice questions but it doesn't equip you to think about basic things in a sensible way.

If you have a basic understanding of principles it is much easier to sort out useful information from crap. That is the starting point with the internet and it is wise to do a fair bit of research before believing anything on a discussion forum. There is plenty of information that is fact if you look on the right sites ( even Wikipedia can be wrong). When you move over to other sites you may be dealing with someone trying to promote their ideas or products or someone genuinely offering advice but which happens to be wrong.

I see many things here that are blatantly wrong, confusing or in many cases dangerous but I am often accused of being negative so I don't in general make much comment unless it is in direct reply to someone and if I can save them wasted time and effort by going down a blind route I sometimes make it fairly obvious that it is going nowhere. I have tried too many of these things and wasted time on them to encourage others to follow that line and waste their time as well.

If it is a new line of attack that I haven't tried I tend to keep an open mind and follow the discussion and see which way it is leading and if it looks promising enough I may even do some trials to get a better understanding.

Those who want to succeed with wind power have two choices, study the subject properly and learn what works and what doesn't or take the simple way and stick to something that works ( plenty from the Dans & Hugh Piggott and many reliable contributors here and on a few other sites) and build it as designed without modification.

There seems an awful lot of people that have no basic understanding that want to take someone else's design and modify it. This can only be done when you have lots of experience, it will take time to see what even a minor change can do and really mess things up.

I normally keep clear of these rants and perhaps it may have been better if I kept clear of this one but it might explain why I sometimes come down hard on someone's idea when I have wasted time on that approach in the past.

Flux

[hiker]

what is that link to  IRC ?

tried it awhile back-coundnt seem to get it to work on my old win98 pc..

[rossw]

You can find the otherpower guys on   irc.otherpower.com in #otherpower, you can find many of the aussie guys on irc.albury.net.au in #aussiere. Several folk inhabit both servers, and usually at the same time.

[wpowokal]

I am confident that any dangerous suggestion will be commented on and corrected even if the poster ignores the advice, do you have a particular post in mind?

allan down under

[oztules]

Ross,

I can see nothing wrong with people posting things that are wrong/incorrect on this or other forums. Invariably it leads to a discussion where it gets cleared up, and in most cases we all learn something from it.... far more than if the discussion had not appeared in the first place.

Forums are generally great places for this interaction to occur, as it occurs no where else.

What is truth anyway.  I have seen not one fact/truth used in the global warming debate that would give it's assumptions any basis in fact........ so we skip getting the assumptions correct, and move on the the ramifications and fear and horror based in solid extrapolations of flimsy one off anomalous events, which when combined with wizardly statistical analysis, proves any thing we need it to prove...and absolutely beyond reasonable doubt.... and fully and dutifully reported by these scientifically challenged reporters. I have yet to see any critical comment or questions.

Example of recent truth:

Recently I have seen (on the news) the Herd Island group of islands being swallowed up and separated by rising sea levels... complete with aerial photographic proof.... (I think they may have confused storm damage on a joining sand spit with rising sea levels...I live by the sea, and my island seems to have missed out on this event)... and reported as scientific fact.... and with a straight face and concerned voice.

Ice shelf break-offs with all of the experts giving their dire predictions..... only to find the following week, that the Australian antartic division reported that ice load is actually increasing, not decreasing as it was supposed to be the week before.....(Those boys will lose their funding, or be forced to recant) http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Environment/2009/04/18/Study_says_Antarctica_growing_323242.html

I have no doubt that the greens among us will see this as proving their case??

It is all based on the sloppiest  science the world has recently witnessed..... But that is how the world works at the moment. facts are out fear is in.

A whole raft of truths is based on nix..... where do you start.

The best you can hope for is informed discussion. In most forum on "real things", this is generally enough to get to the bottom of their subject. I have (as you know) a myriad of questions regarding power factor and it's effects on systems. I read with interest on the EDM forums (the power engineers seem to hang there), and on a simple discussion regarding cfls and power factor, there were lots of replies from lots of engineers who worked with this stuff all their careers... making plain wrong/stupid statements.... in about 80% of the replies.

It fell to only a few people  to straighten out the rest.... so  lots of engineers obviously gained from their wrong statements..... it works in real life, and is the best you can hope for.

The exact same thing has and does happen here. There are lots of aspects that most of us sort of understand, but when push comes to shove, I bet the majority will get it wrong if they have to expound their ideas of complex interactions specifically, and not generally, and back up their statements with hard facts and examples, so that others can easily see where they have/haven't gone wrong. Perfect example of this was the discussion on back to back electro's on backshed.... experts and engineers do not have a mortgage on fact.... sometimes the village idiot gets it right.

With theological dogma, we see sweeping motherhood statements, which everyone nods sagely too.... but not a provable fact in sight (includes the green movement). But much enthusiasm and self aggrandizement is achieved, and they are all happy with their various "truths".

If you see something that you feel is wrong say so. The replies are here forever as well as the statements.... Hopefully, in an open discussion, the truth will finally come out on whatever is discussed on practical subjects.

We will leave the respective truths for the political and dogmatic subjects to different forums, where the lack of a result makes no difference to anyones opinion anyway.

Todays world rewards sensationalism, and refuses to fund real research....

It's no surprise that facts are yesterdays headlines.

It aint broke so don't try to fix it... thats what the guberment are there to do.

........oztules

[Jon Miller]

I feel the 'I found it on the internet, it must be true' situation is just a form of modern survival of the fittest.

In my expereience people who take everything at face value normally learn the hard way weather you tell them or not.

Its nice of others to correct or make the general forum aware of bad practise but it is someone trying to pass on experience, most of the time it is not asked for by the original poster so they will be less prepared to listen.

The 'told you so' h&s world we now live in should keep out of the internet in my opinion.

I like to stick to fact but we are all only human.

[TheCasualTraveler]

I have the same opinion as Allan,

""I am confident that any dangerous suggestion will be commented on and corrected even if the poster ignores the advice""

Further, if I post something dumb and Flux replies calling it silly, that clears it up for me!

[TomW]

Hey, Oz;

So when are you going to tell us what you really think?

Tom

[wooferhound]

Instructions on how to login to IRC Chat . . .

http://oneota.net/~teejaydubya/IRC/chatpage.html

http://www.otherpower.com/opchat.html

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/21/0230/5758

[TomW]

Careful, they are brutally honest!

[SparWeb]

I've been reading a lot of the "other side", too.  I first watched Al Gore's video and then started hearing every meadia spouting the same things - word for word.  That's when I started to wonder just how much journalism was going into all this, and so far the credibility of the news people isn't doing too well.  The more I read and the more I search the worse it gets.  When I was in college I learned about how propaganda was used in wars to manipulate even the mildest of individuals.  Today it's called advertising, but it's the same thing.

Climate models that ridiculously disagree with each other.  The IPCC making mad assumptions about humanity's ability to adapt to changing climate (as if people would starve to death by continuing to plant the same crops when others would grow better).  Historic swings in global temperature may have been more drastic, and we got through them.  The encroachment of city pavement on numerous weather stations which skews the local temperature readings... Aw it goes on like a bad dream.

I'm becoming more interested in who benefits from this useless guilt that is being piled upon everyone.  

As for who is ever right or wrong - I look at it this way:  anyone can write or say what they want - but it is up to every one of us to THINK and make up our minds before acting.  We've got the right to free speech, but we don't all exercise our responsibility to think rationally about what we hear.  Very few people are equipped by their education to do that in more than a few areas.  The world would have a lot fewer wars if people could do that.

[behoof]

Well, IMO one thing is very clear. It would be that limiting or banning or removal of someones ideas would be the first step back to subversion of knowledge. I know, I know, how insightful, but really as much as I agree with removing or commenting out questionable posts I also realize that the person posting MAY be one of the ones dupped by poor or invalid information. Thus being a victim too and without reasonable input from knowledgeable posters that person may continue on, believing what they post.

Another side is to simply, administratively remove a post, post at comment, ban the user, move the post to yet another heading or, no doubt, one of many other options to call attention to it's invalidity. But is that a good idea?

I have to believe that all of us get caught by the "lack of knowledge" bug, especially me and I'd sure hate to get removed or banned for a "stupid or perhaps foolish" post of a question or comment. I'd hope that you good people would take the time to set me on the path to knowledge, as you have many times, and not ban me.

NOW THEN, on yet another hand #3, LOL, there should be times IMHO when posts that are of an obvious commercial, misleading or otherwise clearly detrimental nature need to be called to task. But rather than ban, remove, or whatever , allow for posters to opinion-ize the heck out of it with counter points that are valid and do it in a manner that is "clear". Clear meaning to call the bad post what it is, not just flavor it as iffy or questionable, call it trash or whatever. Make it clear what the REAL thing or issue of the post is so that all get the reasonable answer, so to speak.

Anyway JMHO,

behoof

[bob g]

a couple of thoughts/observations/idea's?

1. if someone posts something that clearly could lead to either him or someone

else being hurt or killed, that should be dealt with straight up. to do other is a

sin of omission in my books, and if you know better and don't step up and someone gets hurt, well... maybe some of the blood is on your hands too?

2. i too have seen some faulty logic, twisted facts, and wild assertions

and somedays it gets tiring to respond to each and ever one, it is easy to tell from the responses some of these posts get from the moderators and those in the know.

so how about this?

why not have another heading to send a post to until it has been proven?

for instance someone makes a claim about a process that while it is not overunity, the results are quite a stretch over those that are typical. so what do you do with this?  lock or delete without giving the OP a chance to prove out his assertion?

might be better to just move it to a section called "unproven" or "theoretical" or

"needs analysis" or something less combative that just locking or removing.

i realize that this section might turn into quite a mess, but what else do you do?

seems like i have seen several topics get whacked when perhaps there might have been something to be learned that might have related to the question in some other less direct way.

just rambling

bob g

[Bruce S]

As a direct answer the the question. Of course I can handle the truth, just be able to prove it.

I have put stuff up here that was wrong, and had no problem having people smarter than me point that out, and I have argued points with others.

I'm pretty sure I haven't gone so far as to want to visit them with my 45lb double recurve or anything like that.

This "it's on the 'net so it must be true, will die a slow death", the skeptic in all of us will help it die. Think Snopes.c...

Allowing people to be wrong from your point of view and explaining it in a calm clear way is what I like to see.

Plus we can't learn if we don't make misteaks.

People like Hugh,Flux, Ghurd, Windstuff Ed,and the DANs, carry a lots of respect from me due to huge amount of information and help they give.

One thing I would like to see, but know that can't be done would be to edit a schematic that is wrong. I've put one up and I'd sure like to be able to either delete or edit it :0.

For others who seem to take offense or are quick tempered: then maybe some de-caff coffee,, take a walk, go play, something other posting that could lead to embarrassment later.

For those who post with hate/meanness involved, there's a timeout corner....maybe?

I was taught along time ago this: Opinions are like arse's everyone's got one...

Keep Smiling

Bruce S

 

[Stonebrain]

I'm sure if someone post dangerous ideas allways someone pops in to send a warning.I think it's better these things are discussed than deleted.

I just think that we all must be aware that the boundary between information and propaganda or manipulation is not allways obvious.

I hope everyone knows that you can never thrust the information from someone who want to sell something or who depend in some way on some kind of the business he's talking about.

Simple to say but these things are not allways visible.So never thrust any information blindly.

Ok,enough stuff for a long dissertation.Just one thing I remarked on this site.

If some post that presents some information that's not favorable to solar electricity

gets deleted instead of being discussed,because the moderators don't want to discourage  

readers from going solar,is this the right track to information?

cheers,

stonebrain

[rossw]

if someone post dangerous ideas allways someone pops in to send a warning.

OK, here's a case in point. (Sorry to name names here...)

Someone advises/recommends/suggests/says-they-do take a perfectly legal 1 watt microwave transmitter and stick it in front of a parabolic dish. Sure, people do it, but more often than not, I fear its done WITHOUT sufficient understanding.

Would you consider it safe to sit in a microwave oven all day? For an hour? For a minute? How much exposure is "too much"? Clearly, when you're dead and cooked it's a demonstrable fact that it's dangerous, but how little is dangerous and how do you prove it? Ie, when does "Irradiating your family or neighbours is a bad thing" change from opinion to fact?

Completely aside from the legal aspects (which vary from one area to another), the safety issue cannot (well, SHOULD not) be ignored.

[richhagen]

I don't think this site or I should be held responsible for the acts of someone who assumes everything on the internet is fact.  

I also don't want my news censored by someone elses opinion of what is so and what is not.  

If I read a posting that seems dangerous or reckless, I will likely respond indicating my opinion of it as such, however, ultimately it should be the responsibility of the experimenter to determine if what they are doing is safe.  

If we dumb it down to the lowest common denominator, we may not end up with much of any value left in the site.  Rich

[brokengun]

I agree that we should all be committed to trying to say truthful things on this forum as to not mislead/misguide people. Really though, this is one of the most reliable places I've found. People's references are usually pretty solid and/or from direct experience. There is a lot of practicality here and not as much theorizing, it's a good mix of both.

I used to see forums and stuff talking about overunity devices and all this other utter crap that's going on. I still cringe when I see anyone link to the PESwiki, which in my opinion is full of discredited junk, there is some useful stuff but overall it's garbage. We have to continue our reputation for credibility on the internet, it's really important. I like to give people hope about renewable energy, but not false hopes.

[TomW]

rockhead;

Ok,enough stuff for a long dissertation.Just one thing I remarked on this site.

If some post that presents some information that's not favorable to solar electricity

gets deleted instead of being discussed,because the moderators don't want to discourage  

readers from going solar,is this the right track to information?

I will say no, it is not the way to go or an opinion anyone I know has that helps moderate here!

Its misinformation like this that cause problems. What I would call a lie.

It gets old when folks like you make this crap up out of the clear blue sky to support some theory you have.

Its simply not true.

It is no secret that the board software is about to go into thermonuclear meltdown due to lack of updates and / or maintenance that editors have absolutely no control over. DanB and DanF are both acutely aware of these problems. It is a real arse pain for all of us as it is now. Please do not toss around accusations without merit it just makes it worse for all of us on this end of the process. I may come off as a jerk but my guys are not and they all work free and are fair.

To attribute malice to what is probably either a software error or your misinterpretation of things is kind of irresponsible.

So am I supposed to offer the opinion you are wrong or simply call it what it is? Its not the first time you have accused us of malfeasance here and I think its time to stop.

I have one "mode" it is called "The truth". Maybe you should try it sometime?

And to think I used my time to fix your pictures in a post a few days ago. Great way to say thanks. Funny thing is I would do it again in a heartbeat because its peripherally part of the responsibility. Only stuff that really goes away is SPAM and we do that with prejudice. Oh, grossly off topic story posts go away, too.

I don't have time to explain it all to you. And it is not a democracy here, we don't vote on things WRT board content. People were put in position to moderate by The Owners, just how it is.

Someone have to decide and if you think you or others are being treated unfairly feel free to contact ADMIN, his email is posted all over the site. I am not likely to discuss specifics in public because it just causes problems.

You have options and Bitching in public is among them but it will be the least productive because the folks who could actually do something seldom get involved in these threads.

Tom

[Stonebrain]

Sorry Tom,

I really appreciate that you've repaired my pics,and I thank you for that.

I'm like you,I'm doing my best(this board is the major reason I'm working on my weird projects).

Ok this board is not democracy but you can't decide what is the truth.Only god can.

I don't claim to behold the truth,I'm just hungry for any information that can get me closer.And I want to be free to express my opinions,I hope you forgive me I do it sometimes in a clumsy way.

I believe you when you say you don't have an easy job,and I've respect for you.

cheers,

stonebrain

[Junkie]

What happened to personal responsibility ?

Whatever you read and believe only you can truly keep yourself safe.

[rossw]

What happened to personal responsibility ?

Good damned question, and one the lawyers and courts have a LOT to answer for.

Once upon a time, we all were "responsible" for ourselves. Nowdays, it seems the law, the courts, and all their cronies are making someone ELSE responsible for anything that happens to US.

You trip over a stone in the footpath. Years ago, you'd call yourself a dill for not seeing it. Nowdays you sue the council, the state, the land-owner, the people who made the concrete, the guys who layed the concrete, the sign-writer who didn't put up a warning sign etc, and walk away with half a million bucks.

Beware guys, there ARE examples of people giving advice (even if it wasn't expressed in those terms, its been TAKEN as advice) that was wrong and has resulted in people either injuring themselves or others, or damaging property, or in some cases, losing money by "investing" in inappropriate technology etc, and sucessfully sueing the person who made the original post (and I think, in some cases, the company or person who hosted the content).

It's a mad, bad world.... and getting worse.

[dnix71]

The "man-made global warming the sky is falling and the oceans are rising up to meet it" is B.S.

What is really going on is economic conflict. The R-12 ban wasn't about the hole in the ozone layer (does anyone even mention it anymore?) It was about US car owners sending roughly $1 billion a year to China to refill leaky a/c's.

The "global warming" hoax is about needing to cut oil use before it runs out and about America importing 2/3's of it from countries with hostile cultures. Politicians have figured (correctly) that people will not vote to give up their energy hog lifestyles unless they are coerced into believing that the earth will be destroyed if they don't.

Global warming would be great for Canada, Russia and maritime shipping.

We live in a failed society where only (well-intentioned) pathological liars can attain high office. Science has become politicized and corrupted.

If you believe based on the scientific evidence that Man was created by God, then you will have your grant money cut off and be ridiculed as a bumpkin. If you disagree with Al Gore and global warming, you may be accused of environmental terrorism under the new McCarthyism. It is no longer possible to have an honest public discussion about some things because men have become willfully ignorant of the truth.

[dnix71]

You mean like this? I think shoes and gloves would be in order, how about you?

[rossw]

It looks pretty sunny there, sunscreen probably too....

[willib]

 "One thing I would like to see, but know that can't be done would be to edit a schematic that is wrong. I've put one up and I'd sure like to be able to either delete or edit it"

Bruce I believe Pictures AND schematics are the one thing that you CAN edit/change/delete  with scoop.

All that needs to be done is get the exact name of the file ( schematic) delete it , and replace it with one with the exact name..

because scoop ,when displaying a post searches the posters files for the picture or schematic in question , if it doesnt find it , it displays a box where the file(.jpg or whatever) should have been..

But you must name the new schematic exactly the same as the old one , otherwise scoop will not be able to find it.

hope this helps

bill

[Bruce S]

bill;

 That's too easy ).

I was more wanting to be able to circle the mistakes that I would put up, then call it for what is was , a mistake, then show the fix or correct circuit.

Would keep one less mistake off the 'net.

Thanks for the input, I may "try" a few creative fixes.

Keep Smiling;

Bruce S