Author Topic: The urban rebellion continues  (Read 3751 times)

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GeeMac

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The urban rebellion continues
« on: October 02, 2007, 11:35:10 PM »
Every pensioner's payday I've been buying a solar power item. Sometimes a panel, sometimes a battery etc. I have reached the point where I am about to connect a house circuit or two to the solar power charged batteries through an inverter.


If I do the message right, there will be a picture in this note. ;-)



Gee, maybe you would be better served posting this as a Diary. It will be easier for folks to track what you do in Diaries. I added your picture in and removed the comment with the picture only in it. Looking good.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 11:35:10 PM by (unknown) »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2007, 05:37:19 PM »
Drat! How do I add a picture to the message?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:37:19 PM by GeeMac »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2007, 05:42:10 PM »


« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 05:42:10 PM by GeeMac »

jimjjnn

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2007, 06:09:12 PM »
You got the pic in OK.

Good job on the solar. Way to go
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 06:09:12 PM by jimjjnn »

veewee77

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2007, 07:06:40 PM »
Great Job!


Are those batteries 12V?


If they are 12V, then it looks like you have a 12V system. That is ok, but remember that when you are running this system, for every amp you are pulling at the 120VAC side, you are pulling 10 TIMES as much on the 12V side. If your load is 5 amps, your draw on the battery is 50 AMPS PLUS!. If you have a 10A load, your battery amps will be 100 amps plus!.  If that inverter is 1500W, and you have it loaded to 75% of capacity, you'll be pulling about 94 amps from the battery.


Looking at your battery cables, I noticed that they lay on top of each other at several points. If those get hot (they could with a heavy load) and the insulation melts, you have a short with fire and smoke and all. It would be better to route those cables so they do not lay on top of each other or over posts or etc. of adjacent batteries. This way, if it does get hot enough to melt the insulation, it won't likely cause a catastrophic failure of the low-voltage system.


Plan B is to put on larger cables, but even then it is not a good idea to allow them to cross each other.


Looks great otherwise though! Keep up the great work!


Doug

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 07:06:40 PM by veewee77 »

Nothing40

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 07:06:54 PM »
Nice work!


I only have one little nit to pick.

You might consider moving one of the cables for the inverter to the other end of the bank.That way you can even-out the voltage drop across the cables,and have a slightly more balanced voltage on the batts.


Like the first diagram here:

http://www.solarexpert.com/Batteries/batchart.html

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 07:06:54 PM by Nothing40 »

Volvo farmer

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 08:57:47 PM »
Nice job!


I have that same inverter on my garage small system . It is an amazing thing for the money. Last week I needed to use a circular saw. It's a pretty hefty saw too. The inverter pulses and pulses the blade until it will actually take off and run. After it's going, I can cut through 2x8 boards all day long! I also built an air compressor out of a 1/2 HP washing machine motor, and it works fine on the Xpower inverter.


Good luck on your future endeavors!

-VF


 

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 08:57:47 PM by Volvo farmer »
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Capt Slog

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2007, 08:34:37 AM »
Are those batteries 12V?


If they are 12V, then it looks like you have a 12V system. That is ok, but remember that when you are running this system, for every amp you are pulling at the 120VAC side, you are pulling 10 TIMES as much on the 12V side. If your load is 5 amps, your draw on the battery is 50 AMPS PLUS!. If you have a 10A load, your battery amps will be 100 amps plus!.  If that inverter is 1500W, and you have it loaded to 75% of capacity, you'll be pulling about 94 amps from the battery.


Thanks for that.  


I realise that once you know this stuff, it's exceedingly obvious, but this is a good explanation of something which I'll admit hadn't occured to me. It's doubly important (no pun intended) here in the UK, because we are on 240v ac.  

« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 08:34:37 AM by Capt Slog »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2007, 11:19:03 AM »
Thank you for the tips, Doug. I'll act on them before I install the circuit to prevent the trouble you mentioned.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:19:03 AM by GeeMac »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2007, 11:26:33 AM »
Thank you all. I shall continue to add panels and batteries. The inverter is the biggest one I could find. I'd like to have a larger one.  My house uses 15.9 Kwh a day and I want to eventually enlarge the system to cover that off.


I do not know how to calculate how many panels and batteries I will need to sustain the 15.9 Kwh needed each day. I need some help from the group for that please.


To begin with I will only put the smaller house circuits on line so that I am not drawing too much from the batteries.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:26:33 AM by GeeMac »

ghurd

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2007, 11:38:10 AM »
Google 'solar worksheet'.  Some are better than others.


This is simply hit #1 and not a recommendation of any kind.

But I like how it has been broken down into 3 worksheets, even if I don't like how they are linked on the left, but I am easily confused!

http://www.sierrasolar.com/design/worksheets.htm


I will suggest completing a dozen different worksheets before making any decision$.

G-

« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:38:10 AM by ghurd »
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ricksure

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2007, 03:32:25 PM »
Hi GeeMac

 I had the same inverter which I fried. I phoned xantrex about this and they said

its neutral is bonded internally to ground. Tying into a panel can cause a fault

to occur at the inverter. Just to let you know, but your system looks good !

 Rick
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 03:32:25 PM by ricksure »

ghurd

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2007, 03:42:17 PM »
That is a whole story in itself.


Don't tie the inverter neutral to ground, unless told otherwise by the person who will replace the blown up inverter.

I don't think that guy exists.

G-

« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 03:42:17 PM by ghurd »
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ricksure

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2007, 04:49:16 PM »
Yes Ghurd this is not wise.

The info that comes with that inverter does not show or tell that the unit is internally bonded. According to the people at xantrex it was not intended to be used in this was, only stand alone which is why it is bonded.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 04:49:16 PM by ricksure »

ricksure

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2007, 04:50:48 PM »
Sorry I meant in this way
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 04:50:48 PM by ricksure »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2007, 05:16:14 PM »
Okay folks - About the ground issue. Are you saying that I should NOT ground the circuit box from the inverter output three prong plug circuit? Which means No ground fault wire in the circuit box is the way to go?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 05:16:14 PM by GeeMac »

Volvo farmer

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2007, 07:11:25 PM »
I do not know how to calculate how many panels and batteries I will need to sustain the 15.9 Kwh needed each day. I need some help from the group for that please.


Oooh, your goal is take your whole house off the electric meter?


Some suggestions, from a guy who has been living off grid for a year.


You should be able to do better than 15.9 Kw/day. Our family of four uses between 3 and 5 Kw/day because we ruthlessly practice conservation.


If I were you, I wouldn't even consider expanding that system to run your whole house. Fist of all, the batteries are wrong for a large system. You want true deep cycle six volt batteries like the ones they use in golf carts, not 12V marine starting batteries like I see in that picture. Also, the inverter isn't big enough, and the solar panels you currently have won't likely match the kind of panels you'll need to make the kind of power you are talking about.


Here's some quick figuring. If you do some major conservation and get your electric diet down to 10KW day, you'll need approximately 2000 watts of solar panels. Street price on large polycrystalline modules lately is about $4/watt. So there's $8000 in solar panels alone. You'll need a high quality, high capacity inverter, it will cost over $1500, you'll need a large, high quality charge controller or two, maybe $500. If you don't grid tie, you'll need at lest $500 in batteries, probably more like $1000.


That's a pretty neat system you built there. I really think you should think twice about expanding it much though. Those components you got are just not up to the task of powering a whole house to the tune of 15KW/day.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 07:11:25 PM by Volvo farmer »
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DamonHD

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 02:34:12 AM »
My home is down to 7kWh/day (electricity) from 33kWh/day without giving up any creature comforts and I'm sure we can get down further if we really tried.


Conserve first and you will save enormous amounts of money on the PV up-front.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 02:34:12 AM by DamonHD »
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peter nap

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2007, 04:49:28 AM »
Geemac...lookin good! Now let me rain on your parade just a little.


Your system looks just like my starting system. Boy it worked well, except I couldn't run much.

The advice about going to a higher voltage system is good.


My only real concern is that it looks like it's all in your house. The gas when charging is explosive and you should move them to a box that's vented to the outside. OK enough safety advice.


The learning curve can get expensive if you don't roll with it. I have my system broken into several systems so I can make use of the batteries I shouldn't have bought and the inverter I shouldn't have bought. Why don't you run a circuit with what you have and run as much DC off of that system as possible (60 percent of my lighting is 12VDC).


When you add on, buy 6 volt Golf Cart Batteries. They can be used as 12V or 24V or 48 V and don't cost that much more than Wally World Deep Cycle Batteries.


The circuit you hook to your inverter should be removed from the panel IMHO and connected to a separate fuse panel. I like fuses better because they give you a cleaner blow then breakers.


Good Luck and Keep up the good work!

« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 04:49:28 AM by peter nap »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2007, 08:32:38 AM »
Just a quick note on the batteries I am using. They are 12 volt deep cycle marine (long cranking) batteries. I think they are gel inside and there is a vent nearby.


I really am appreciating the advice I am receiving in this discussion board, but I am not much of a solar zealot - I am, first of all, having fun in my old age and secondly only concerned with the slow reduction of the size of my power bill. I don't plan to sell any of my solar power back to the grid. I recently snuck a windmill into my back yard where the town authorities cannot see it from the road or lane behind my house. (Heh heh heh shhhh) When I am not working on power generation I make and repair violins and guitars.


Times are changing and there might be a need for an urban power section in this discussion board.  It would be slightly different because city councils will eventually become involved in the home generated power issue and will try to regulate it and tax it if they can.


Carry on having fun

« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 08:32:38 AM by GeeMac »

GeeMac

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 03:45:33 PM »
Hot Diggitty Dirt! - I just got the first circuit moved over to the new box and it actually works.


Now I am going to swell with pride and sit on the porch and have a beer . . . or maybe two beers and a donut.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 03:45:33 PM by GeeMac »

ghurd

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 03:47:18 PM »
With luck, the grid in your neighborhood will go down, a bit after dark.  :-)

G-
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 03:47:18 PM by ghurd »
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picmacmillan

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Re: The urban rebellion continues
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2007, 11:00:49 AM »
hi geemac..first of all nice job on your system...to download pictures put them in "your files"..you'll see those words on the side of front page of fieldlines...secondly..i have a file i got from someone that details batery pro's and cons in detail in my files...click my name and it will take you there...lots of other good battery files here..you can also save it and print it if you like to your computer...good luck :)  pickster


gel cell batteries  6 volt each




« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 11:00:49 AM by picmacmillan »