Author Topic: Just picked up about 2KW of panels cheap, but new to solar!  (Read 3994 times)

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jondecker76

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Just picked up about 2KW of panels cheap, but new to solar!
« on: March 13, 2010, 12:17:30 PM »
I just got what I think was a lucky break on some solar panels.

44 individual 42 watt panels, 48 volt nominal. They are all brand new, in the original packing crates. I paid exactly $1 per watt for these. They are about 4' tall x 2' wide. I have spot checked about 5 of the panels. Even indoors from the ambient light, they are throwing over 20 volts open circuit, so I'm quite sure they all work as they should.


While I'm not new to wind, solar is pretty new to me.  I was looking for some advice on how to wire these.  My current plans are:




  • small (<1000 AH) 48 volt battery bank for back up power

  • Dump to the grid when battery bank is charged (looking at some outback gridtie inverters right now)

  • I will be completing a 48v axial flux wind turbine hopefully this year which I need to plan ahead for (I would also like to dump excess from the turbine to the grid when the batteries are charged)




Now for my questions:

These panels have 2 sets of leads - I'm not sure of the purpose of these, or how they should be wired together. (Can i just parallel all of them???)


RE: Grid Tie...  My thought was to have the grid tie inverter wired directly to the battery bank, and turn it on when the batteries are full (essientially the grid is my dump load). Does this sound feasible?  Would it damage the battery bank any to be pumping into it from my RE system, and at the same time feeding the grid?


Any other suggestions and tips would be greatly appreciated!


thanks!







« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 12:17:30 PM by (unknown) »

jondecker76

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2010, 12:55:26 PM »
I am also looking for suggestions on how to build a good rack for these panels.

All I know at this point is that I want to use steel, and have it securely anchored to concrete piers in the ground.


Is it really worth the effort to make a tilting setup for optimal summer/winter use?


(BTW, i'm at aprox 41 deg latitude)

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 12:55:26 PM by jondecker76 »

SteveCH

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Re: Just picked up about 2KW of panels cheap, but
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2010, 02:07:05 PM »
You can easily build your own racks from steel. I use angle iron, 1.5" by 1/8. Welded together with two diagonals that meet in the center of the upper or lower rail to maintain the shape in winds. The panels themselves will do some of this, but I prefer to have diagonals to avoid stress on the panels. You will need to drill holes in the upper and lower rails [the horizontal ones] to bolt the panels in place, and you may need to drill matching holes in the aluminum frame of the panels. Put a block of wood in place to prevent the drill bit accidentally hitting the back side of the cells.


I clean the frame with solvent, then paint with a decent metal paint.


For mounting to the ground, I pour small concrete footers at each of the four "corners" meaning the two side [vertical] legs of the rack and then the two supports that hold the rack up at the angle you want. Into the concrete I set left-over or scrap angle iron to which the legs will be bolted. If you measure everything correctly, simple and one-man job to get it all set into place. I do all the hole drilling and painting prior to erecting them on the hillside, so all I have to do after bolting them into place is carry up the panels and bolt them into the rack.


I don't put more than three panels into a rack, which is roughly 6 feet worth of rack [2-ft. wide panels]. I originally had a couple racks that were much wider [heavier gauge angle iron, of course] and held up to 8 panels. I do not advise doing this, as the unit is very heavy, awkward, and in my case the racks were damaged by our winds after a few years. There is a lot of area in those racks of panels and the wind exerts much force to the plane.


Since I rebuilt the racks to make them smaller and added a lot of racks and panels several yr. ago, I have had zero damage.


My first racks were made to be adjustable and I did so by drilling many holes in the support legs and using wing nuts to make it simple and easy to change the angle. However, after several yr. of adjusting them, I decided that the gains from doing so were very small, and now I set my panels for maximum during January and leave them there all year. But that is your choice.


There are some pretty slick mounting systems for panels, clips and the like, but I simply drill some holes and use small bolts. To run the wires between and among my racks and over to the combiner box, I used cheap metal conduit to protect the wire sheath from UV and etc. I drill more holes in the rack to secure the conduit to the legs. Very inexpensive and fast work to cut and bend the conduit if needed. Since I don't adjust the angles of the racks, this is no problem. I used PVC pipe originally and eventually the sun degraded them and I had to replace.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:07:05 PM by SteveCH »

wdyasq

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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 PM »
IF one parked a set of panels in the median position and used a "cosine correction" of 23 degrees they would get 92.0504853% of the available power in the 'worst case scenario'.  The average loss would be less than 3% from a 0-23 degrees or so. Someone feel free to check my math. That can be cut in half by adjusting the panels twice a year.


The real advantage is in tracking a set of panels. by my calculations one can get over a 30% boost in power by having the panels square to the power source.


Ron

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:21:15 PM by wdyasq »
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tecker

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Re: Just picked up about 2KW of panels cheap,
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2010, 02:22:12 PM »
Homey Depot has some AL channel that will probably get you closed in around the edge .

Chalk Urethane Flathead 6 /32 inside out in the channel  (1/8 bit and a 3/8 counter)to some 1" Al angle for the mount .You should support all four sides to control breakage these panels don't like to be torqued they will crack if not mounted right . Looks like a good find post back on your progress .
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:22:12 PM by tecker »

poco dinero

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2010, 07:16:01 PM »
Hello jondecker76,


Sounds to me like you MIGHT have gotten a bargain, although new panels are available for a dollar a watt these days.  With new panels you get a tax credit of 30 cents per watt, reducing your cost without shipping to 70 cents per watt.  You'd still have to pay shipping, and so unless you can use the tax credit and/or can get free or low cost shipping, I'd say you probably got a bargain.  My first set of panels, back in 1978, were BPs, same brand as yours.  They disappeared off my sailboat into the Sea of Cortez during a storm in 1982.  I don't know if you can get the tax credit when you buy previously-owned panels, but if it were me, I'd go for it and let the IRS ding me if they disagreed.


I notice they were manufactured in 2002.  Nominal 48 volt panels that small in wattage size were a little unusual back then, and still are; but not impossible to find.  The picture of the nameplate doesn't show the nominal voltage.  Are you sure they're nominal 48 volts?  Doesn't really matter as long as you know what it is; since they are all alike you can connect them in series-parallel combination to get almost any voltage you want, as long as it's greater than the nominal voltage of a single panel and less than the input dc voltage of your charge controller.  You'd be better off if they were 12 volt, 42 watt panels, or 48 volt higher wattage panels (see reason below).


During a year's time the sun's maximum elevation angle at high noon will vary plus or minus 22.5 degrees from whatever it is at high noon on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes.  At high noon on the vernal and autumnal equinoxes the sun's elevation angle will be equal to your latitude.  At the summer solstice the sun's elevation angle will be your latitude plus 22.5 degrees.  At the winter solstice the sun angle will be your latitude minus 22.5 degrees.  The amount of energy your fixed PV array receives from the sun decreases if the array is not pointed directly at the sun.  But it decreases as the cosine of the difference angle.  The cosine of 0 degrees (i.e., sun at a 90 degree angle to your array, difference angle equals zero) is 1.  You get 100 percent of the sun's available energy.  But let's say the sun is shining at a 10 degree angle to your array at high noon.  The cosine of 10 degrees is .985, so you haven't lost much.  You are still getting 98.5 percent of what you would have gotten if the sun was shining directly on your array.


Solar panels are so cheap these days that it almost doesn't pay to try to maximize their output by adjusting their angle to the sun, especially for large arrays.  Just slap 'em down pointing straight south and forget about adjusting them, that would be my advice.  For small arrays, say up to a thousand watts, it might be worth the trouble to seasonally adjust them.  Dual axis trackers cannot be economically justified these days unless there are space and/or zoning constraints, or you're a techno-geek.  I have 1.4 kw of Sharp 175 watt panels mounted on a Wattsun dual axis tracker.  I get a kick out of watching it follow the sun all day, then spin around after the sun goes down and park itself pointed at where it thinks the sun is going to come up in the morning.  Doesn't take much to amuse me, these days.


Let's see.  Your 41 degrees latitude plus 15 degrees (to equalize winter and summer performance) equals 56 degrees, which is the optimum angle (measured between the plane of the ground and the plane of the PV array) at which you should mount your array.  A roof with an 18:12 pitch is at an angle of 56 degrees.  If there's any chance that you have the need and enough space on your property for a shed, that's what I'd recommend.  A shed with a south-facing roof big enough to hold that 2 kw array.  Sheds are cheap compared to angle iron and go up a lot faster.  No welding needed.  You could make it a pole-shed (even cheaper) if your zoning allows.  The poles can be anchored in cement.  In my zoning area, no building permit is necessary for a shed under 200 square feet, which would be large enough for a 2 kw array with the roof angled at 56 degrees.  Then you got someplace to put the lawnmower and all of that other junk that most of us stuff our garages full of and then have to leave the new car outside.


I'm not going to comment here on how you should connect these panels to each other and then to your combiner box, and then to your MPPT controller (You do plan to use one of each of those, right?), because I am sure others on this forum who know as much or more about that as I do will comment.  Besides, I can't (nor can anybody else) tell you how to connect those panels unless they know what controller you are going to use; specifically what it's maximum dc input voltage is.  If nobody comments, let me know and I can help you.  You DO NEED to use a combiner box with a breaker position for each series string that you end up with.  You want to configure the array so that you end up with the least number of series strings, yet do not have a string that is so long that it is capable of exceeding the maximum dc input voltage of your charge controller.  If these panels truly are 48 volt nominal voltage 42 watt panels, and you are charging a 48 volt battery bank, you're going to end up with a BIIIG combiner box with lots of breakers.  It'd be better if they were 48 volt 200 watt panels or 12 volt 42 watt panels.  If they were 12 volt panels you could combine 4 or more panels (depending on the controller) into a series string, then you'd only have ten or less strings.


It gets kinda complicated, in a hurry.  You need to choose a charge controller before you do much of anything else.  Pick the one that has the highest possible dc input voltage and enough amperage capacity to control 2 kw of PV panels.


I hope some of the more knowledgeable folks on this forum will analyze my post and tell you if I have steered you in the wrong direction.  I'm getting senile, my finest days are behind me, it's cocktail hour as I write this, and it'd sure be nice if somebody could check what I've written and maybe put you back on the straight and narrow path.


Additional comments on your post:


"small (<1000 AH) 48 volt battery bank for back up power"


That is a huge battery bank, with 2 kw of solar and a wind turbine feeding it.  I wouldn't go over 500 AH at 48 volts.  Batteries are EXPENSIVE, you'll be looking at around $8 - $10 per AH.  Use the leftover money for more generating capacity, either wind or solar.


". . .essentially the grid is my dump load. . ."


The grid works great as a dump load as long as your generating capacity never exceeds your inverter's sell capacity and the grid never goes down while the wind is blowing.  If you have a wind generator you still need a (resistance heating) dump load for those times when the wind is blowing hard and the grid is down.


"My thought was to have the grid tie inverter wired directly to the battery bank, and turn it on when the batteries are full . . ."


You won't have to turn it on; any UL-listed, correctly programmed inverter (such as the Outback GVFX 3648) will automatically sell to the grid when the batteries are charged, and stop selling to the grid when the batteries are discharged.


poco


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  5.  Money, drinking, guns, and pooping.

  6.  Sleeping, drinking, and pooping.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 07:16:01 PM by poco dinero »

jondecker76

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 07:25:55 AM »
poco-


thanks, this was a lot of excellent information for me.


To clarify some things, these panels are brand new (new old stock anyways).  It was the first time they had seen daylight as they were still strapped and wrapped in the original crates when I opened them. I picked them up about 50 miles away, so shipping basically cost me about $40 in gas.  I will try to claim the tax credit, as these are new panels, despite being manufactured in 2002.


The company I bought these from said that this is the spec sheet on the panels: https://www.onlinefilefolder.com/1sIOfnYICSt3LJ

and noted that these 42w panels were the same as the 43w panels listed on the spec sheet.


So it does look like there will be some added cost to parallel all of these together being such low wattage.  However, I live on a 200-acre plot of land, and I have nothing but space to work with.   The property south of my house is free from trees for at least a quarter of a mile, as well as being clear to the east and west.  It seems like a perfect RE setup.


I would like to mount the panels on a shed, but had thought it would be a bad idea due to the 1600 lb. weight of the 44 panels.


I still have a lot of planning to do, and realistically I'll be lucky if I can get this all done this year (though I'm going to try).


I'm still trying to figure out why each panel has 4 leads...  Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 07:25:55 AM by jondecker76 »

halfcrazy

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 07:41:33 AM »
this is odd that they have 4 leads I wonder if it is so you can daisy chain a certain amount of panels in parallel?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 07:41:33 AM by halfcrazy »

GaryGary

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Re: Just picked up about 2KW of panels ...
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 08:49:16 AM »
Hi,


On the seasonally variable tilt angle, I concluded its not worth the effort:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/PanelLocation.htm

If you run PVWatts for a steep (winter) tilt angle, and shallower (summer) tilt angle, and then run it for something like tilt equals latitude (usually best for a fixed tilt).  You can then see how much better the high tilt is in the winter and the low tilt is in the compared to the fixed tilt.  


The grid-tie may be a problem.  If the panels don't have the UL1703 approval on them, an inspector may turn you down on the grid tie installation.  The guy who inspected my system never looked, but technically, the panels are supposed to have the UL1703 approval.  You could boot leg the the grid tie without an inspection, but I'm not sure that a regular meter will "run backwards" and give you credit for the electricity you generate.  On my system the utility replaced the meter with a "net" meter that gives you credit for the electricity you generate.  Talking to the utility guy, it sounded like the old meter might have actually charged me extra for the power my system generated, but I'm not sure about that.  Something to check on.


These are the mounts I used:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/EnphasePV/Mounts.htm

One could use a similar design with steel.

Having the Iron Ridge extruded aluminum PV panels support rails maded things easier, but its not essential.


Gary

« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 08:49:16 AM by GaryGary »

poco dinero

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2010, 12:41:46 PM »
Hello jondecker76,


I tried to pull up that website you put into your last post, but it produced no matches.  I sure would like to see that spec sheet.


It occurred to me after my last post that you had said these panels were 4 feet high and 2 feet wide.  That is a really big panel to only be putting out 42 watts.  I have a panel up at my cabin that is about 15 inches wide and three feet tall, and it puts out fifty watts.  Your panel area is over twice mine (1152 square inches vs. 540 square inches).  Is it possible that BP packaged two independent 42 watt panels under a single cover glass?  If so, that might also explain why there are four leads.


In the absence of those spec sheets, I would do some electrical testing.  Is there electrical continuity between one of the leads and any of the other three?  Run this test for each of the four leads.  If this test indicates that you have two independent sets of leads, put the panel in the sunshine and read the Voc for each pair of leads.  Also read the voltage drop across and the current flow through a known resistance.  From this you can calculate the wattage flowing from those two leads.


If these tests indicate that there are truly two independent panels under one coverglass, then each of the 44 panels is actually 84 watts and you just cut your purchase price in half, to 50 cents per kw, pre tax credit.


If there is a junction box that those four leads come from, pop the cover and make yourself an electrical schematic of how the panel is wired up.


"I would like to mount the panels on a shed, but had thought it would be a bad idea due to the 1600 lb. weight of the 44 panels".


Sixteen hundred lbs. divided by 44 panels equals 36 lbs per panel.  36 lbs/panel divided by 8 square feet per panel equals 4.5 lbs panel weight per square foot of roof.


Since you live at latitude 41 degrees, you must see snow.  Snow loads are usually cranked into rafter calculations.  However, I suggested that you mount this array on a shed roof that is inclined 56 degrees, using an 18:12 pitch.  You don't even have to consider snow load if the roof pitch is 45 degrees (12:12 pitch) or greater, because even the government was smart enough to realize that not much snow sticks on steep roofs.  For purposes of determining rafter size, you can treat that 4.5 lbs/square foot solar panel weight as a rather small snow load.  I say small because snow load on my house is 45 lbs/sq ft; and at my cabin it's 180 lbs./sq ft.


So here's what you do.  Draw a shed with a south-facing roof that has an 18:12 pitch.  Make the roof somewhat rectangular and big enough to hold all 44 panels.  The rest of the shed has nothing to do with the solar array, so just fill in all the other lines of the shed so that it suits your eye.  Aesthetics.


Now, get ahold of some rafter tables (internet, library, etc.).  From your drawing of your shed, measure the span of the rafters on the portion of the roof that holds the array.  Note:  the span of a rafter is not its length; it is the horizontal distance between its upper and lower support points.  You can have a 16 foot long rafter with a 6 foot span; in fact off the top of my head I think that is about what you'll end up with.  From the rafter table choose a rafter cross section that meets the strength requirement for the roof loading, i.e. probably 10 lbs dead load, 30 lbs live load, and your 4.5 lbs solar panel (fake snow load).  My guess is that you'll end up with a 2 x 6 or maybe a 2 x 8 rafter cross section.  That's all there is to it.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 12:41:46 PM by poco dinero »

Jon Miller

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 04:31:25 PM »
They look like thin film to me.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 04:31:25 PM by Jon Miller »


poco dinero

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Re: Just picked up about 2KW of panels ...
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2010, 05:57:45 PM »
For jondecker76,


This is in response to GaryGary's post.  I wouldn't sweat that UL1703 certification for solar panels that he brought up if I were you.


But if you're a sweater, there is a legal way out.  It's not only legal, it's perfectly satisfactory from an engineering standpoint also.  It's the way out for you, to get around that possibility that the solar panels are required to be listed, but aren't, and some super savvy, nit picking building inspector finds out.  Fat chance.


You said you are going to have a 48 volt battery bank and a 48 volt wind turbine.  Wind turbines do the same thing solar panels do, which is to generate electrical energy, feed it to a battery bank, from where it goes to an inverter which sells the power to the grid.


Wind turbines are NOT required to be UL listed.  In fact there are no 48 volt battery charging wind turbines sold in the United States that are UL listed, not even the big names like Bergey.


Inverters that are grid-tied, however, are required to be UL 1743 listed.  At least in most jurisdictions.  There are valid engineering reasons for this.  I'm not going to go into detail why, but trust me, there are good reasons.  Do not try to grid-tie an unlisted inverter even if your inspectors are schlocks who don't know an inverter from a door knob.  And do not even THINK about doing a "boot leg grid tie without an inspection".  You want it inspected by both your building inspector and, more importantly, by the utility company.  Not that they're likely to provide any valuable suggestions, it's all for the purpose of CYA and to keep you out of trouble.


Ok, you've already said you are going to have a 48 volt wind turbine charging a battery bank.  What's to stop you from buying a UL listed inverter and tying it to the grid, with your utility company's blessing, and feeding the power generated by the wind turbine to your battery bank and thence to the grid?  NOTHING.  Your inverter is UL listed, and there is no listing requirement for battery banks and/or wind turbines.  Get it inspected by both the utility company and your building inspector, and you're good to go.  You're legal.


There is nothing, either legally or engineering-wise, to stop you from putting in a different wind turbine later on.  No building permit, no further utility company inspection.  They blessed your UL listed grid tied inverter and they are not going to care if you add additional or different battery charging equipment.


See where I'm going here?  Adding 2 kw of solar panels is just more battery charging capability.  It could just as well be a Listeroid diesel driving a DanB 2 kw 48 volt alternator.  No UL listing requirement there.


Let me tell you about my personal experience.  I went the totally legal route, and I'm glad I did.  Got a building permit for the installation.  Just a few bucks.  Had the building inspector come out and inspect the rebar before I cemented the pole for the Watsun sun tracker.  Gotter all installed.  Called for the final county building department inspection, got it signed off, no problem.  The building inspector didn't care if the inverter was UL listed or not, much less the solar panels.  Called the utility, told them I was ready to tie it to the grid.  They sent a meter guy out who changed the meter.  That guy didn't even look at the inverter or the solar panels.  The only thing he checked was my safety switch (which disconnects the inverter from the grid), and he made sure I had a sign posted saying "Parallel Generation on Site".  That was it.  I was good to go.  I even got a rebate check for $1830.00 from the utility company a few days later.  Why cheat?


I'm going to be adding "additional battery charging capability" this summer, in the form of two 2kw 48 volt wind turbines.  I did have to get a conditional use permit for those two wind turbines because the towers exceed the height limitation for my zoning.  I'm only on 12 acres.  I also got a building permit.  I'm debating whether or not to even call the utility company.  If I do, it will be something like this:


"Hello, uh, Hello?  I'm out here in New Harmony and I have a grid-tied inverter that you folks inspected and approved.  Ya'll came out and changed the meter.  It runs off a 48 volt battery bank that is charged by a 48 volt solar array.  Do you guys care if I add a 48 volt wind turbine to help keep the battery charged?"


Hint:  Utility guys have no respect for 48 volt anything.  Might as well be a doorbell.  It takes about 77,000 volts to get their attention.  End of story.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 05:57:45 PM by poco dinero »

jondecker76

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 08:15:25 AM »
Ok, I found the spec sheet for these:


www.photovoltaik.co.at/pdf/pdf_pv/bp%20-%20mst43%20-%20modul.pdf">www.photovoltaik.co.at/pdf/pdf_pv/bp%20-%20mst43%20-%20modul.pdf


Again, these are supposed to be exactly the same as the mst-43 panels, just that they are 42 watts.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 08:15:25 AM by jondecker76 »

PHinker

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 09:47:13 PM »
Where could a guy pick up solar panels for $1 a watt?  Nothing I've seen comes anywhere near that inexpensive.  The best I've seen is around $3 per watt.  Slightly less if you buy the A- cells from ebay and build your own.


Thanks

« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 09:47:13 PM by PHinker »

halfcrazy

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 05:30:26 PM »
sun electric in florida 98 cents a watt if i remember rite
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 05:30:26 PM by halfcrazy »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: a couple more things...
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 04:32:18 PM »
As I recall those are working seconds without UL approval.  They have some with UL markings, too, and while they're more expensive I think they're still under $2/watt.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 04:32:18 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »