Author Topic: solar/heat powered steam producer?  (Read 1735 times)

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polypod

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solar/heat powered steam producer?
« on: August 28, 2005, 05:38:20 PM »
Greetings, first time poster.

First let me say i love this site and am thrilled to see the collaboration on such profound topics. I have lots of ideas and a lot to learn. Just reading some of the electrical talk about made my head spin but i'm remaining open and eager to learn.


I'm interested in New Mexico and high-solar exposure for my self-sustainable experimentation and am wondering about steam. It seems like with a large satellite dish left over from the 80's pointed at a container with water, one could generate steam, which could then power a small turbine. Has anyone explored boiling water with the sun and harnessing the steam?

I had also thought of having a closed system in which water is merely evaporated to a higher point and then collect on angled glass in order to fall down a small shaft with a turbine or something. This idea may require a lot of water to generate the necessary flow i imagine..

(I'm generally interested in water distillation also for cleaning the water but i don't want to get off topic.)

Also, having used perlite to generate 100% humid environments due to it's porous nature, it seems like this material could be added to any kind of evaporation system.

Thoughts? Laughs?

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 05:38:20 PM by (unknown) »

Phil Timmons

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Re: solar/heat powered steam producer?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2005, 12:38:25 PM »
Sure.


I am working on a design for mobile/portable and fixed site:


Solar Boiler > steam turbine > electric generation > distillation/condenser > tap spare heat for domestic use and building heat > return to boiler.


(Should produce distilled water and/or alcohol as a freebie side benefit)


in about the size ranges of 400 sq ft. for the portable (folds onto a 20 foot trailer), and 3000 sq ft. (total building roof) for the fixed site.


dunno what exactly counts as a "large" sattelite dish?  A couple of guys I know have used backyard dishes (about 8 feet?) with reflective mylar in the dish.  mho, seemed like very high PITA for not much area, cannot change the focus, and is not practical to expand.


To bring you up to speed, here is some info:


http://www.ida.net/users/tetonsl/solar/solarhom.htm  (concentrator / boilers)


http://phoenixnavigation.com/ptbc/home.htm (homebuilt turbines)

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 12:38:25 PM by Phil Timmons »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: solar/heat powered steam producer?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2005, 01:05:32 PM »
If you're boiling the water, letting it condense and only generating power from it running downhill afterward is horribly inefficient.  You should use the expansion of the steam from the boiling to power a steam engine.


(This has the disadvantage that you're working with high pressures and temperatures, with a resulting explosion risk.  But you can mitigate the risk by having only a small amount of water in the system, using only pipes rather than a big boiler or storage for above-boiling-point pressurized water, and of course a safety valve.)


A tracking dish - a two-dimensional focus - lets you generate superheated steam and get more of the energy from a given amount of light-collecting surface turned into mechanical power.  But it also gives you extreme temperatures (i.e. it can melt metal if the water runs out).  And tracking the sun minute-by-minute means more complexity and moving parts.


A parabola trough - a one-dimensional focus - only needs to be adjusted for the season.  It will generate "process steam" - boiling the water but not heating it too far beyond the boiling point.  This will drive a small steam engine.  You get less power from a given collection area because the collection temperature is lower.  But if you have the land for it it's much easier to build a large collector, and this can make up for the inefficiency.


In either case, after you've run the heat through your engine you can use it for other heating uses - like heating your house water or your house air.  The amount of heat you'll get is proportional to the area of your collector and is not affected by the type of focus, only by how well the object at the focus absorbs light.  Running it through an engine converts SOME of its energy to mechanical power - which will go back to heat where you use the power - and so the dish system might have a smaller fraction of the heat it collects left for dumping into heating systems.  But even that one will only convert maybe a quarter of the heat to mechanical/electrical power - if you did it REALLY well - with the other three-quarters or better coming out as heat you must dump or use as heat, and the tracking improves over the non-tracking trough by about that amount.  So figure on your heating capacity being essentially just proportional to the area times the number of solar hours at your location and you should be about right.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 01:05:32 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Info on making steam engines.
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2005, 01:13:24 PM »
By the way:


If you want to make steam engines you can learn it the same way the people who ran the steam railroads and early power plants did:  From the ICS (International Correspondence Schools) textbooks.  Their entire steam course text set was reprinted some years ago (after they came out of copyright, I think) and should still be available.


A tad pricey.  (I think I got my brother (the train fan) the complete set for something like $125 a couple decades back.)  But once you've read those you'll know how to build and operate a railroad engine, stationary steam engine, or the heat-to-mechanical part of a steam power plant, using only 19th century technology.  B-)  (Said brother has since passed the tests, gotten his licenses, occasionally runs steam trains at amusement parks, and has a ride-around steam train on his country property.)

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 01:13:24 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

wabron

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Re: solar/heat powered steam producer?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2005, 03:29:58 PM »
I'm a first time user of this message board...please help me if anyone can.

I'm interested in Solar Panels for my home.We live in Texas and we also have a lot f wind.

I need to know how many panels are needed for a 3 bedroom house?

we don't know much about windmills, but would like to know more.


Thanks  wa

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 03:29:58 PM by wabron »

Phil Timmons

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Re: solar/heat powered steam producer?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2005, 03:51:13 PM »
Hi WA, welcome.


What part of Texas?


I am in the Dallas area.  There is a real-world and on-line group around here that helps folks with that type stuff -- especially the PV cell stuff.  Geeezzz, some of them live and breath that stuff.


It is a yahoo group, if you are familiar?  You can sign up on yahoo.com.  The group is ntreg@yahoogroups.com -- stands for North Texas Renewable Energy Group.


But you should find a lot of good advice, here, too.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 03:51:13 PM by Phil Timmons »

Kwazai

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Re: solar/heat powered steam producer?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2005, 06:42:58 AM »
you might find this interesting reading- low pressure steam "wobble" pumps.


http://www.lightlink.com/francis/stevenhomepage.html


L8r

Mike

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 06:42:58 AM by Kwazai »

maker of toys

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Re: Info on making steam engines.
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2005, 02:40:58 PM »
UGLR:


please contact me off-forum RE: ISBN#/ Sources for the ICS railroad stuff.  (I'm a steam junkie and volunteer machinist for a railroad museum.)


my yahoo address is steelnomad2002


thanks,


-Dan  

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 02:40:58 PM by maker of toys »

polypod

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Re: solar/heat powered steam producer?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2005, 01:38:16 PM »
some very interesting links, thanks everyone!

My mention of merely evaporating the water was an attempt to find simpler methods for power production. While efficiency is important in general, when using the sun in places like New Mexico, even inefficiency can be worth one's time if it means simple and cheap. I've got researching to do, thanks again!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 01:38:16 PM by polypod »