Author Topic: Modified sine wave harm?  (Read 2286 times)

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rickeolis

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Modified sine wave harm?
« on: September 06, 2006, 03:40:49 PM »
Hello,

  I'm buying a 1500/3000 wattt inverter to begin transferring items in the house to go solar, but it is only a modified sine-wave style. Later I plan on getting a Xantrex GT 3.0 but until then, what items in my house should I NOT plug into the inverter? Thanks-


-Rick-

« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 03:40:49 PM by (unknown) »

Norm

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2006, 09:53:37 AM »
   Well for starters if you have a  battery

charger for cordless items it might goof up your

charger for them especially a smart/dumb quick

charger....just from what I can recollect from

postings on this board.

   Take everything I say with a grain of salt

tho' I'm not that much on electronics.

               ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 09:53:37 AM by Norm »

robl

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2006, 12:48:06 PM »
Rick,


Variable speed motor controls, some dimmers. Anything using triacs or scr's can be problematical. It's mostly a matter of testing each new component you use. Some amplifiers are a bit noisy.


Rob

« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 12:48:06 PM by robl »

cyplesma

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2006, 08:27:20 PM »
what about surge protected extension cords. the multioutlet kind?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 08:27:20 PM by cyplesma »

TAH

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2006, 09:06:22 PM »
I don't have any problem with surge cords. Cordless tool chargers mostly don't work so well and Sears ones blow up. Computers work fine and almost everything else. The kitchen aide mixer speed control gets flaky but that's it. I ran it through a isolation transformer and that worked, it would probably work with the battery chargers too. I am going to try an inline inductor to smooth the power to the mixer.


I have two Xantrex DR3624 connected together to get 208 VAC. I have a Best 5KW true sinewave but the wasted 10% just doesn't seem worth it.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 09:06:22 PM by TAH »

ghurd

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2006, 10:09:46 PM »
I never had a problem with average quality brand name, or cheaper cordless tool chargers.  Except Sears/Craftsman, which SOME smoked. And some brand I never heard of with a long, German sounding name.

Makita chargers can be picky, working with every other inverter of the same brand and model, but most are fine. And the Makitas that don't charge just kick off without harm.


Some of the very cheap brands (HF) with a wall-wart charger can over-charge, but I expect they do that with grid or pure sine wave too.

The batteries in my very old cell phone got hotter on mod sine wave than grid.

G-

« Last Edit: September 06, 2006, 10:09:46 PM by ghurd »
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kurt

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2006, 08:18:56 AM »
my 3.5v milwaukee screwdriver (made by Panasonic) it says right in the instructions that plugging the charger into an inverter will destroy it and void your warranty i took there word for it and never tried it as chargers are expensive. Milwaukee makes a 12v charger for that particular modal if i really needed it.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 08:18:56 AM by kurt »

rickeolis

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2006, 11:45:01 AM »
I appreciate the feedback, so no problesm with fancy TV's or refrigerators?

So far, I've been using a 375 watt inverter to power up garage lights and a battery recharger for my kids electric powered ATV riding toy, and it doesn't seem to have any problems.

I've orderd a 5 amp charge controller and that 1500 watt inverter, and so far have 90 watts of solar panels. That, along with a few deep-cycle batteries should allow me to begin going on-line in the house with some appliances, so I'm trying to get a feel for what I can do. I live in New Mexico, so I have plenty of sun hours per day.


-Rick-

« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 11:45:01 AM by rickeolis »

PaulJ

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2006, 06:07:58 AM »
   Fancy TV might show up some inverter noise on the screen (usually a couple of annoying horizontal lines) - then again it might not.


   The fridge won't run as efficiently on mod sine as it will on full sine, with the difference presumably heating the compressor motor. I don't know how much of a problem this is, I ran a (cheap old) fridge on msw for months with no problem. The same fridge used about 20% less power on a full sine inverter, measured on the DC side before the inverters (the measurement didn't allow for inverter efficiency, but the mod sine I had wasn't THAT bad). The fridge sounded better on full sine.


   Paul.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2006, 06:07:58 AM by PaulJ »

neff

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2006, 04:43:13 AM »
The fact that the inverter is not sinewave is not the real problem here. The problem is the type of transistor bridge doing the switching.


There are two types of AC load, resistive and reactive. For a resistive load, eg filament light bulbs and heaters the load seen by the AC source is the same as the load seen by a DC source.


If a load is reactive however, eg. contains a choke like in a fluorescent lamp, or a capacitor, such as a plug in time-switch or electric shaver, this gives rise to a circulating current which travels between the load and the source, but is not a real quantity in that it does not contribute to the useful output of the device.


This current needs a return path in order to circulate. If the inverter powering the load uses a "full bridge" of transistors, aka an "H-bridge" then there is a natural return path for the reactive current. If however, the inverter uses a half-bridge, which is more common on the "modified sinewave" inverters (which are really more like a square wave than a sinewave) then there is no return path for the reactive current and it has to be dissipated in the transistors themselves, causing them to get hot and much more current is drawn from the battery than should be for the given load. This can burn out the inverter and/or the load.


Unfortunately, manufacturers rarely advertise whether their inverter will handle reactive loads or not. Many even state that they can run microwave ovens and refrigerators etc. A microwave is about as reactive (inductive) a load as you will find at home, because it has a big transformer in it. This means that if the inverter will run it at all, it will do so very inefficiently, drawing many times more current from your battery than is necessary!


to work out roughly whether this is the case or not, run a traditional fluorescent lamp fitting from your inverter (eg. one with a choke ballast) and measure the current drawn from your battery. If the battery current is around (lamp power/battery voltage)+10% then the inverter can handle a reactive load. If it is significantly higher, then you have a problem.


The modified sinewave issue also contributes to inefficiency in the load. The inverter itself is about 90% efficient, but if running a motor or transformer load, then the square edges of the "modified sine" waveform contribute to iron losses in the load. These I am sure you are familiar with as a raspy buzzing noise, lines on the TV picture, etc.


I am using an old APC smart-UPS as my inverter (5kVA, 48VDC input) This is both sinewave and full-bridge and it runs any load in my house up to about 4kW as if it was running from the mains line. In fact the sinewave from the UPS is less distorted than the mains itself!


I hope this has cleared up a few issues with inverters damaging equipment and I hope I have not told you too much of what you already know. If I have, I apologise!


best Wishes.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 04:43:13 AM by neff »

ghurd

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Re: Modified sine wave harm?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2006, 06:19:52 AM »
I never thought of it that way.

Any idea what some of the more common brands use, full or half bridge?

PortaWattz, etc?

G-
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 06:19:52 AM by ghurd »
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