Help with new RV solar system

[ONEmule]

 GREAT SITE, I have been doing research on products for my system and stumbled upon this site (literally). I am in the beginning stages of setting up a solar system on my 40' bus. So far I have 6 kyocera 120 panels, a combiner box for panels, C40 charge controller, magnum 4024 Inverter/charger, solar array breaker panel, and a 3 cyl.Kubota diesel engine minus generator head. I have been searching for ac/dc disconnects, 150 breaker panel,Dc breaker panel, AND BATTERIES. EVEN THO A LARGE CHUNK has been accumulated i still need a few items.I must say that i have never done this before and am worried about making a Biggie mistake. I have grounding issues where as neutral and ground must be kept separate and my only grounding will be at the generator. (so i have read) because it is for an RV it is not grounded like a house would.I have a few wiring diagrams but if anyone would like to ad there 2cents I would appreciate it.Also what batteries would you recommend, I am on a very tight budget, are those Sams club batts worth there money ?? I would like to find a batt for around 125.00 or less x ( ouch, and would hope them to last 10 plus years. I cannot seem to locate a good source for my gen head other than the ST type,are they worth there $$ plus i would have to come up with a pulley set-up.Again thanks for all the Great info on this site and THANKS in advance for all your help.  Randall/ONEmule  :~)

[Volvo farmer]

Google Midnite Solar for nifty boxes to hold AC and DC breakers. I think Sam's club batteries would be OK in your situation. If nothing else, good batteries to "learn" on, at half your stated budget.

[Jeff]

I use WalMart (which is essentially Sam's) Deep Cycle Marine batteries for my home power system. They are part #: 27-DC6 and are 115amp/hours each. The nice thing is they are only $60 with a trade-in. They give you $9 for old batteries now! They have a 3-year full, and 10-year pro-rated warranty, but a good friend has one in his boat that's been there for about 15 years!

I hope to get at least two more soon, so I can use them in my power scooter. The AGM's it comes with are expensive, don't last, only have a 1 year warranty, and are only 50ah each.

Harbor Freight has a 10,000 watt generator head fairly cheap. They claim it requires about a 20hp motor to run it.

Good Luck!

[ONEmule]

 Thank you both for your comments, I figure since this will be my first experience with this type of system it probably would be better to go with the Sams batteries. I am not sure the Harbour freight gen head will work, or for that matter what type of adapter i will need. Again my generator is a Kubota 3 cyl diesel. at one time it was used for a portable light tower but the Head was missing. how about the Math any one    Will my 720 watts worth of panels be enough ?? what size battery bank should i have for my 4024 Inverter/charger.  Thanks Again for all your help.  Randall

[ghurd]

I almost can not comprehend finding a RV-type use for 720W of solar!

The 6V Sam's golf cart batteries will last a lot longer than the 12V marine batteries.  Plus they are about half price ($63.50 here) of the Trojan T-105s.

G-

[Jeff]

Holy cow!!! 720watts of solar is a bunch for anybody!

Those Trojans you mentioned ghurd, are a couple more $ than the the ones I mentioned. But... how many amp/hours are they? And how long is their warranty? How long do they usually last?

I'd have to get two at a time, but I'd like to know if I ever get the $ to upgrade my system.

[ghurd]

Not sure if this is a rant, too-much-info, or a very complete answer.  I do that sometimes.

The 'real' T-105s are Trojan-brand 6V 220AH.  I heard yesterday the 'big' local dealer is getting ~$140 each.  

The Sam's golf cart ("generic T-105s"?) are rated a little less, like 190~210AH(?), but the Sam's batteries used to roll off the same line, with the same parts. (Google trojan battery recall)  Not sure about now, but I'll check the terminal stamp codes on some about 2 weeks old when I can.

I don't care about the warranty...

Part #1.  I don't care about the warranty, as long as it is 100% for 6 months.

Good batteries don't need a warranty longer than that.  I probably put in somewhere around the tripple digit mark of "T-105s" in the last 6~8 years, mostly Sam's Club, and I am ~not aware of~ any being replaced.  Many of those were in small systems that went through a G27 once a year (note).

Part #2.  I don't care about the warranty, because some big name-brand battery company won't honor the warranty without more time, effort and money than it costs to just buy another battery.  Most of the small dealers around here have gone to Interstate because of that (though there are some other issues with the area's distributor).

Does anyone think they can prove they have not violated the warranty exculsions of Trojan?  It does need proved.

http://www.trojan-battery.com/Tech-Support/SolarWarranty.aspx

I returned 2 car batteries (and seemingly countless tires) to Sam's. No problem with any warranty stuff.  And 'a battery is a battery', so they take a 1.3AH SLA for trade-in on a 6V.

Part #3.  I don't care about the warranty, because my truck had a crappy warranty, and in 170K miles it only needed an O2 sensor (out of warranty, BTW). It's rusty, but I still drive it.  (I don't count shocks, tires, oil changes... or gas)

My neighbor's car had a Great warranty, and it needed a new motor, couple starters/alternators, 2 complete A/C systems, and 3 transmissions... all under warranty.  It was shiny, but he traded it in before the warranty expired!

(note) Pay $120 for 2, 12V 115AH, or $125 for 2, 6V 220AH.  Sounds the same.  In a reliable system that is being used, the 6V will be cheaper before long.

YMMV,

G-

[ONEmule]

  F.W.I.  My Rv is a 40' bus  Greyhound style so there is plenty of room for 6 panels. stop and think about it  !!!  It will be my Roving HOUSE with all the amenities.

 Thanks for the imput... BUT WHAT  WILL MY 6 PANELS (720)WATTS TAKE CARE OF, BATTERY WIZE IN AMP HOURS.  Randall

[TomW]

Mule;

I hear you on the roving house bit.

Here is a "fer instance":

I have 300 watts of solar plus a 6.5 foot turbine. I run at 24 volts. I have about 900 amphours of batteries. This can almost run my 19 cubic foot refrigerator and its not a super efficient fridge by any means. Oh, it runs some LED Xmas lights as a night lite, a cordless phone and a kitchen task light occasionally.

When we got the fridge I didn't spend much time hunting an efficient one because it died over a holiday weekend, I needed one "now" and I live in a small town and buy local for reasons not dictated by cost.

Undoubtedly you could do better on efficiency of a fridge but this is just what my 300 watts of solar can do with a boost from some wind. About every 10 days I need to let the Outback pump the batteries up for a few hours this time of year, too. In summer it pretty much keeps up.

You need to realize that this is not a simple question to answer and has lots of variables.

In my case I get about 9 to 10 amps of solar full bore and I have around 100X that in AH. Not saying you should, just thats what i have. I had half that a good long time, too but recently upgraded.

Cheers.

TomW  

[ghurd]

I like to size the charge amps at 5 to 10% of the battery AH.

At 24V, that's 21A of PV, so 210 to 420 AH at 24V. 8, 6V golf cart batteries would be fine.  A little more battery can take some extra charge from the grid or Kubota.

Will there really be loads of 4KW? That will pull ~180A from the battery, so 8 would be better than 4.

Like TomW said, too many variables to tell you if this will do what you want, and we don't know what you want to do.

Will it have a washing machine, or is the plan quarter washers at the camp ground or in town?  If it has a washer, chances are when it's laundry day there will be full hook-ups for water and grid. (I can't believe a washer is worth the weight of the machine and water, and power)

Electric coffee pot? A 4 cup pot once a day, or a 12 cup pot 5 times a day?

PC with CRT or a laptop?  LCD or CRT TV? 20" or 52"?

Off grid A/C?  I hope not.

Might consider a 5 or 6.5 HP Honda or B&S mower engine connected to a 24V one-wire alternator, if you can't find a head for the Kubota.  Might be a good idea to run it if an extended 2KW load was operating.

[ONEmule]

 What I am looking for if any one could help is a few wiring diagrams I have searched and cannot find what i need. My biggest obstacle is GROUNDING !! and a transfer switch, also where to put breakers and disconnects .  Your help is always appreciated. Thank You.  Randall/ONEmule

[ONEmule]

 After Re-reading my post several times, I guess an apol is in order !! I purchased a 40' Greyhound type bus that I will be converting into a (home) I am partially disabled and need to travel. As I have previously stated, six 120 watt kyocera panels, 4024 Inverter/charger, c40 charge controller (not the best), Pv combiner, Kubota 3 cyl Diesel generator missing head,

 This will be a simple conversion, I am going to try and use LED lights where applicable, hopfully Dc of course, washing machine and propane dryer two loads per week, desktop pc around 4 hrs per day +/- I dont think my 42 plasma will work so I will get an LCD around 26 in, microwave 1000 w maybe 15 min p/day, propane oven and stove,not sure about water heater yet thinking about elec/propane. My engine alternator is 300 amps so I can use it when traveling to heat water heater also my active solar can go there if there is any. Sounds like I will be going with sams club batts ( of them unless better deal comes around. so not sure of Ah. will use my Ipod for music thru not sure yet

 As you can tell by now I am not the best with math but am able to work on anything that is why I am seeking your help. I really need wiring Diagrams. I will use 110v when able to otherwise its up to my 720 watts P/day of solar panels and my Generator, when I find the right head for it that is.

 Thank You All for your patients with me, I am a Newbie in need of help.  Randall

[ghurd]

The inverter manual should have wiring diagrams.

It will need some big expensive hardware for switching between grid and battery.

Northern Arizona Wind and Sun has / had some good info.  They are redoing their site and some stuff is in limbo.  The manuals for different brands should be available in PDF.

http://www.solar-electric.com/index.html

Midnight Solar has some handy hardware. Disconnects, etc.

G-

[ONEmule]

Thank you all for your imput and advice.  Randall

[ghurd]

Anything about "Grounding" always starts an arguement.  It is worse than politics and religon, at the same time.

I personally wouldn't ground the inverter's output ground wire.  I would let it fly open, but I have been known to do stupid things from time to time.  Grounding the output 'ground' wire on some (most?) inverters fries them. Not sure about that one.

The disconnect should handle it, but I would ask the inverter company and disconnect company before a purchase.

I would call the inverter company, the disconnect company, and anyone else you can think of.  That's why they have 800#s.

Don't get distressed about conflicting info.  

If you ask "Can it be used over the Mariana Trench, and they say "Yes".

Then you ask "Must it always have a ground?" and they say "Yes".

I would ask them "What minimum gauge must a 7 mile long ground wire have?", but that is what I do.

You just have to sort out who is telling the truth, who lies to sell an item, and who doesn't want to get sued.

Two quick thoughts.

"Marine" inverters for boats are sold.  How long is the ground wire to the ground stake?  Maybe they intend them to only be used when shore power and it's ground circuits are available?  Maybe they intend the user to go from the mid-Atlantic or south Pacific to some island, drive in a few 10' stakes, connect a ground wire, then warm up a cup of coffee?

"Always ground the system"?  I didn't notice any true ground in any of my mobile 12V systems.  Toyota, Crestline, VW, Yamaha, Chevy, Starcraft, Honda, campers, canoes... and believe it or not, none have been stuck by direct lightning.

I would always have a grid or grid tied system grounded.  It needs to be done very carefully.  Some inverters fry if the "3rd hole" is grounded.

None of that taught you anything, except that what you don't understand might not be completely understandable.

G-

[TomW]

I have to agree with ghurd here. Especially on mobile and marine installs.

If its connected to the grid then the game changes. Not exactly sure how but you can get as many opinions as people giving them WRT grounding.

Bottom line is follow the manufacturers instructions. Thats how my Outback is installed [as recommended by Outback].

Cheers.

TomW