Author Topic: panel vs. battery voltage differential  (Read 3798 times)

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Walt Er

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panel vs. battery voltage differential
« on: August 21, 2008, 11:34:24 PM »
Hi all,


Is anyone aware of a formula for calculating how much higher the panel voltage has to be than the battery voltage?  I know that a 12 volt nominal panel produces around 17 volts max output, so 17V max is acceptable to charge a 12 volt battery.  


That could either mean that the panel output has to be 5V higher than the battery, or 42% higher than the battery.  


If I apply that to a 48 volt battery, I either need a panel with a 53V output (48 + 5), or a 68V output (48 X 1.42).  


I hope it's not 68V.  I'm trying to figure out the lowest acceptable panel voltage to charge a 48V battery bank.  


Thanks for any help.  

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:34:24 PM by (unknown) »

electronbaby

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2008, 05:56:39 PM »
what type of PV cells are the panels made up from?

what climate will they be installed in?


12v nominal systems usually require 36 cell modules, but can get away with less if it installed in a very cold climate. The hotter the climate, the more cells you need because of voltage drop when the module heats up from contact with sunlight.


If you are charging a 48v flooded cell bank, the cell count should be 144 in the circuit. You could try less, but it will start to lose the voltage you need in higher temperatures.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 05:56:39 PM by electronbaby »
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Walt Er

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2008, 06:20:30 PM »
Thanks for the response.  I haven't chosen the panels yet, so I don't know what kind of cells they will be, although it seems like the thin films are coming out in higher voltages.  Do you know how cell counts translate into thin film? The climate is NH, so a few months of heat and a lot of months of cold.  


For mono/poly, it seems like you are saying that the formula is three times as many cells as battery voltage (at about 0.5V per cell).  Is that accurate?  

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 06:20:30 PM by Walt Er »

electronbaby

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2008, 06:54:25 PM »
There is no basic "rule of thumb" that I know of. It is a factor of the temperature coefficient of the cell material. Mono has certain behavioral characteristics, Poly has its own characteristics. Amorphous has its own also.


Amorphous modules (along with Mono and Poly) are made in higher voltages now, because thats whats in demand. The majority of the world is moving towards grid-inter tie systems, and the higher you can keep your DC voltage, the more efficient the conversion can be, and the least amount of copper you will need to bring the power in.


If you are buying a commercially produced module, then then everything will be figured out for you.


yes, cells generate approx .5v dc


What are you trying to do?

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 06:54:25 PM by electronbaby »
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Walt Er

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2008, 07:36:10 PM »
I'm trying to set-up a small off-grid system.  The batteries will be powering a daily load of 1536W.  At 48V, that's 32 amp hrs.  At 3 hours of insolation, the panels need to deliver 10.52amps.  Since the panels need to have a higher voltage than the battery, but still need to deliver 10.52 amps to the battery, each additional volt increases total wattage and therefore total panel cost.


It would be much easier on my wallet to buy a theoretical 49V, 10.52amp panel (516W) instead of a 72V, 10.52amp panel (757W).  


That's why I'm trying to figure out the minimum necessary voltage differential to charge a 48V battery bank.  


By the way, I want to use 48V because the panels will be a couple hundred feet from the cabin and I want to economize on wire.  

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:36:10 PM by Walt Er »

dnix71

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 10:20:58 PM »
A 12 volt lead acid battery shouldn't be discharged below 12.3 volts or you shorten it's life through sulfation.


12.3v x 4 = 49.2v


A 12 volt battery is fully charged (not equalized) at 13 volts


13v x 4 = 52v


To equalize flooded lead acid batteries, but not cook off too much water you need to take them to something above 15 volts (maybe 15.5) with a slow charge. A true equalize is about 17 volts, but that requires being very careful with the finish current and temps so you don't spew acid all over.



  1. volts x 4 = 60v
  2. 1/2v x 4 = 62v
  3. volts x 4 = 68v


With 4 batteries in series, you do have to equalize and be careful about it.


If you get 75% of your charge in and out each cycle, you have done well, so you will need 1.3 times the expected drawdown to cover for losses.


53v won't do it. 68v is the theoretical ideal. less than 60 will make it hard to properly equalize

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:20:58 PM by dnix71 »

dnix71

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 10:25:46 PM »
You will have some losses in your long feed wires and in the controller, so the 72 volt panel, though more money, would actually be close to ideal. You won't get the open circiut voltage at the batteries, anyway.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:25:46 PM by dnix71 »

tecker

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2008, 01:20:34 AM »
The open circuit voltage is representative of the total number of solar junctions in any given panel . The number your interested in is the full load voltage. Any panel of size will produce 7 to 7.5 volts and the break is 130w at 17volts  to 200 at 24. You have added up your needs at roughly 1600 watts mixed impedances to be handled by an inverter I assume . The primary battery voltage at 48 volts leaves you with a low end purchase of 4 130s or 2 200s  . Prices are $700 for 130s to $1000 for the 200s a piece shipped. Some creative shopping will lessen this but when it's all said and done you end up around there . If you start with the inverter you can eliminate the control and meet your power needs with the big money purchases of an inverter and panels  . The battery bank can be purchased based on hours of usage starting with base inverter needs say 200 ah and conservation  budgeting in more batteries and panels  later.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:20:34 AM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2008, 01:22:04 AM »
That's 7 to 7.5 amps sorry
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:22:04 AM by tecker »

RogerAS

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2008, 07:13:28 AM »
Solar in winter is a hit n miss deal.


The angle of the sun through the atmosphere, which becomes greater the farther from the equator one lives, and the shorter length of the day offset the cooling of the panels and wet cell batteries become less and less effective the colder they get. Physical and mppt tracking can gain some of those losses back, but add complications to the system. Storms are more frequent as are cloudy days. Snow covered panels don't charge batteries, at least mine don't. In late fall I've had leaves plastered to my panels after storms and had to peel all those off.


This brings up a question I've never seen addressed or even considered;


How much snow/ice load can industrially constructed PV's sustain without damage?


When it snows here it is often very heavy and wet. We got about 14" and it came quickly this past winter. My truck would barely move until I brushed off 1/2 ton of snow. Should we add that to the list of complaints about solar in winter?


All that being said I sure would hate to go into winter without the meager array we now have. (750 Watt). This is my third set of batteries since we moved here a little over 8 years ago. First set 4 6V golf carts, burned up in 18n months. Far too fast charging cycles followed by far too deep (read dead as a doornail) discharge cycles. Doubled that to 8 and made those last 3 years, still with very little solar and unregulated charging. We then spent some coin on our PV's and a good charge controller (C-40) and this 12 battery 6V to 12V bank just sets there at 13.4 90% of the daylight hours. These batteries hardly even use any water, and the plates are all gunmetal greyish with no sign of warping or thinnng. I credit this battery life entirely to the adding of the slow steady input from the PV's and the regulated self equalizing mode in the C-40. Yet I sometimes have to run the Kubota to make up for big loads/uses (sawing, drilling, ect.).


The bottom line is I wouldn't expect your panels to produce as well in the winter, overall, as they do day in and day out in the spring and fall. The heat issue with PV voltage drop, and heat in the batteries reverse the effects of winter with the same results. Wet batteries can be far easier to damage in the summer, when they are already hot, from overcharging. If the batteries are too warm to accept what the PV array can produce this power is lost unless diverted to a useful purpose. My C-40 came with a temp probe for the batteries and I use it.


If you have the land and the resources I suggest you look into adding some wind to your system. Start small if you have to, but the winds here are most pronounced in the fall until spring. Just when the sun becomes less reliable our windy season starts. Wind blows at night. Wind works.


Hope these ramblings help in some way,

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 07:13:28 AM by RogerAS »

ghurd

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2008, 07:30:34 AM »
It sounds like you want "MPPT".

(The owner's manual for the SB2512iX has a dandy explaination.)

The MX-60 is very highly regarded.

G-

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 07:30:34 AM by ghurd »
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wooferhound

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 09:10:36 AM »
A fully charged Flooded Lead Acid Battery will be at 14.7 volts

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/7/7/20256/31335


also don't worry too much about the voltage that you are charging the battery with. The battery will always try to keep the voltage going into it, at the voltage level of the battery itself. The battery will be sitting at 13 volts, and your Wind/Solar power will be 22 volts open circuit. As soon as you connect your open circuit Wind/Solar power to the battery, POOF ,everything is now running at 13 volts. It pretty much doesn't matter what voltage you want to charge the battery with, Your genny may be making 65 volts open, but connect it to the battery and then everything is at the battery voltage.


What happens to all that extra voltage? It's converted to amps and that is where you start to worry about your stator burning up. Once your wind genny reaches Cut-In (battery voltage) the measured volts will be the battery voltage which should be increasing slowly as it is charging. As your genny speeds up past cut-in the voltage doesn't increase, but the amps do. Under most circumstances you don't have to worry about the voltage of the device you are connecting to the battery, your worry will be with the ability of the charging device to deliver the Amps without burning up.


When Charging a battery try to keep the current going in to less then 10% of the capacity of the battery. For Example: a 100 amphour battery should be charging at 10 amps or less.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 09:10:36 AM by wooferhound »

puTTs

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2008, 05:34:08 PM »
Hello.

Was there ever an answer to the original question?  I couldn't find one in the above post.  I've been wondering the same aswell.  ? If i have a battery at 12.0v will a panel with 12.1 open circut volts charge the battery to 12.1v?


Thanks

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 05:34:08 PM by puTTs »

ghurd

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2008, 05:58:23 PM »
That is more complex than you expected.


No,   In a semi-balanced system.

The 'blocking diode' will reduce the Voc under load.  Or the controller will cause a V drop.

A 10th-amp will cause 0.1V drop in the wires.

Voltage drops in the wire connections.

Panels get hot, reducing the Vopen.

The Vopen drops like a rock with a few milli-amps of current drawn.

Etc.


A 12V PV in a 12V system needs 36 cells to be effective under 'all normal' conditions.


That is why most brands have 36 cells in a 12V PV.

And that is why MPPT is better if the PV watts are a lot of watts.


Just to add more confusion...

Most PVs show higher amps into the battery if the battery volts are low.

G-

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 05:58:23 PM by ghurd »
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puTTs

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 06:21:40 PM »
What the original post asked is, it takes 'X' amount of volts over the battery voltage to overcome the resistance and charge the battery.  How do we figure out 'X'?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 06:21:40 PM by puTTs »

tecker

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 06:39:19 PM »
 A manfacturer does the calculations for you and tests the panel in a low resistance  condition to detrmine full load amps and gives  the voltage at full load if that voltage is greater that battery voltage the batteries will take power from the panel . The panel may produce fullload current but if the voltage at full load is below battery voltage no power is passed thru . It's X amount of voltage over battery voltage at full load as the panel sees what amounts to a short when charging a battery.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 06:39:19 PM by tecker »

puTTs

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2008, 06:50:20 PM »
Ok...let me try to reword this.  Lets say were not talking about solar panels.  We have a 12.10 volt battery charger that outputs 12.1v at infinite amps.  And we have a battery at 12.00v.  Assuming after all losses 12.1v is what the battery is seeing at its' terminals will it charge to 12.1?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 06:50:20 PM by puTTs »

electronbaby

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2008, 07:03:32 PM »
yes, it will charge to 12.1v  The current will be quite low going into the battery and therefore runs the risk of not keeping it charged (overcoming its internal resistance losses). You could do damage to the battery over time, by charging it with such a low current depending on its capacity.


We WERE talking about solar panels. Thats what the original question referred to.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 07:03:32 PM by electronbaby »
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puTTs

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 07:11:59 PM »
Good to know :)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 07:11:59 PM by puTTs »

Walt Er

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Re: panel vs. battery voltage differential
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2008, 01:47:41 PM »
Thanks for all the good insight.  I'm looking into the MPPT option to maximize panel voltage and minimize wire size from the panels to the controller, but only using a 12V battery bank.  I posted a new question related to this setup under a new heading today.  
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 01:47:41 PM by Walt Er »