Author Topic: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss  (Read 11448 times)

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DigitalMind

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Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« on: December 08, 2008, 04:14:00 PM »
I've always had trouble with this although I've never asked.  


The cable run between my solar panels and battery bank is about 100 feet.  Is there some kind of calculator or equation to tell me what guage cable I need to carry "X" amount of watts without too much losses ?


The small 30 watt system is working fine now, but I will soon be doubling it up to 60 Watts and soon after probably doubling it again to 120 Watts. I'm sure the multiple strands of Cat. 5 cable I used will not be good enough. (Quite frankly i'm surprised it works with the 2 X 15 Watt panels)


SO, basically, what guage cable would I need for a 100 foot run that will support up to 120 watts of solar power without too many losses ??


Thanks a million !

Jason

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 04:14:00 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 10:11:22 AM »
Loss depends on current so there is no answer unless we know the voltage.


The loss is far less with series panels and mppt controller but I suspect you are looking at 12v direct.


Others will be able to point you to calculators to give you mathematical answers but the actual loss is not too easy to determine as it depends on the panel temperature and battery voltage. I don't think some of the cable sizes predicted by these calculators is justified. These are current driven sources and volt drop doesn't make as much difference as predicted by voltage considerations alone. It may make more economic sense to use an extra panel than spend a fortune on heavy cable.


100ft is not very far and 120W is not that big. I am involved with an installation with 600W of panel and 100yd run. It was originally intended to be at 36v but factors changed and at present it runs at 12v. The cable is 10mm^2 ( #7 in your strange language I think). The total cable run is about .3 ohms. With batteries dumping there is significant loss but with batteries low the loss is not very significant and I wouldn't consider heavier cable justified. If I had done this on the basis of it being 12v and used a calculator the cable would have cost a fortune.


With your cable run and 120W panel the losses for #7 would be tiny.


Flux

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 10:11:22 AM by Flux »

altosack

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 11:48:41 AM »
Hello Jason,


I agree with Flux that the loss calculators do not tell the whole story. What is important is not that you have a system "without too many losses", but that the system works for what you want it to do. The following assumes you are at 12V nominal; if not, scale up (for 24V, multiple voltages by 2; divide currents by 2).


A typical PV panel puts out a very slowly decreasing current up to about 14-15V, at which point it starts decreasing faster and hits its maximum power point (where the current is decreasing at the same rate at which the voltage is increasing) at about 17V, and then the current falls off precipitously above that. A lead-acid battery needs up to 14.4V to top it off, but at that point the current is being limited by the charge controller anyway.


If you don't have a Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT) charge controller, as long as you are not losing so much (calculated) voltage that the resulting (calculated) voltage is lower than the battery voltage, you're not really losing much power.


For example, let's say you have a 12 ga wire (~0.0017 ohms/ft), so your total resistance is 0.34 ohms (2 x 100' x 0.0017 ohms/ft). If your 120W panels are typical, they put out about 7A at 17V (7A x 17V ~= 120W). So your voltage loss is 7A x 0.34 ohms = 2.4V, leaving you 14.6V, enough to charge your batteries, so your loss is minimal (less than the I^2R loss of 7^2 x 0.34 ~= 16W would have you believe; you've already lost more than 16W by not using MPPT).


However, the voltage of the panels will go down when they are really hot, so if it's 100F (~40C) outside, the panels might be 140F (60C), and they might lose about 1-1.5 volts, leaving you about 13.1-13.6V, which is probably enough to keep your current from dropping too much if the batteries are below 80% full. On the other hand, if your battery's at 14.4 volts, your charge controller is probably limiting the current anyway, so it's rather moot. Note that this is an approximation, and you would have to use the actual I-V curves at the cell temperature to determine the current, but only do this if you like math and analysis and don't really have much else to do.


If you are charging batteries, the heat loss is probably moot, because you have extra hours of sun in the summer anyway, and your batteries will stay charged (unless you are using your solar power for irrigation or another normally summer only activity). 12 ga wire is pretty cheap and available, so that's what I'd use. This will accommodate around 600W if you eventually go to MPPT at 48V nominal, so you've got a bit of breathing space. If you want the highest efficiency in the summertime, use 10 ga.


Sorry this was so long, but I haven't yet figured out how to write concisely.


Best of luck with your system,

Dave

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 11:48:41 AM by altosack »

DigitalMind

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 12:41:55 PM »
Thanks Dave and Flux.

  It is in fact a 12 volt system. (I should have known to mention that, sorry!)


So basically Dave, from what you're saying, as long as the voltage I get at the END of the cable run is enough to charge the batteries i'm not losing too much current. Is that it ?  (so 12 volt system, if I run the cable and I measure lets say somewhere between 14 and 17 volts from the panels (with nothing else connected except for the 100 ft of cable) then I'm ok ?


Thanks !


Jason

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 12:41:55 PM by DigitalMind »

DigitalMind

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 12:47:20 PM »
Oh yeah, and I DO NOT have an MPPT charge controller.  Only a cheap-o charge controller that I eventually disconnected because so far we've only got 30 watts of panels to recharge a 225 amp hour battery bank so it's NEVER full.  (It's only used to power lights in the small house, and occasionally a laptop so generally the batteries idle at around 12.6 volts. (It's been over a year though, it's doing all right!)


Once it's up to 120 watts, I will obviously re-connect the charge controller.  (If the budget supports it, I'll get an MPPT)


Thanks,

Jason

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 12:47:20 PM by DigitalMind »

ghurd

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 12:47:29 PM »
With nothing connected, there are no amps flowing.

No amps flowing means no voltage loss.  Should be the same voltage on both ends.

G-
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 12:47:29 PM by ghurd »
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electronbaby

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 01:01:07 PM »
find the ohms/kilofoot measurement of the wire. There are charts for this.

Your distance run is 200 feet for calculating your DC wire loss.

Use Ohms Law.


(ohms/kilofoot)/5 = your resistance for 200 ft run.


([ohm/K-ft]/5)* I (current you are drawing)= Voltage drop on your wire.


If you aren't familiar with the math, you could simply connect your load, and measure the voltage at both ends and subtract.


Bigger wire never hurts. Especially at a low voltage (higher current) and if you will be adding to the system.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 01:01:07 PM by electronbaby »
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boB

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 02:28:22 PM »


If the batteries are never (or hardly ever) full, and you are around to watch things,

I would just connect the PV to the battery and basically leave it.  Especially if the PV is 100 feet away.  The bigger the wire, the better.  BUT, if you are thinking about adding more PV later, just install what you can for wire at the moment.


boB

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 02:28:22 PM by boB »

richhagen

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 09:10:55 PM »
I wrote a wire resistance calculator a few years back and posted it here, if it would be of use to you.  Keep in mind that in order to complete the circuit from your panels, you have to get the electrons there and back, so double your distance to the panels if you are using the same size conductor for the positive and negative leads.  Rich


Wire Resistance Calculator Posting:  

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/11/27/12326/032

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 09:10:55 PM by richhagen »
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DigitalMind

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 08:00:21 AM »
Thank you Bob, Ghurd, Electronbaby, and Rich Hagen.  Your combined answers has pretty much explained it to me.  


Thank you very much.


Thanks Ghurd for clearing up my misunderstanding from before, I would have ended up measuring it with no load otherwise. :)


73's

Jason

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« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 08:00:21 AM by DigitalMind »

wooferhound

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 09:14:54 AM »
I downloaded the program and entered "8" for the wire gauge and "110" for the distance in feet. It came up with a HUGE incorrect number for the answer. I tried some other values that came up with the correct answers.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 09:14:54 AM by wooferhound »

richhagen

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Re: Wire gauge for Solar panels without loss
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 04:25:50 PM »
I just tried 8 guage (U.S.) and 110 feet and came up with  6.94007227227446E-02, which is .0694 Ohms, which is approximately correct.  I can not seem to replicate the error you observed at this time.  Maybe some difference in how the VB6 is interpreted on your machine???  Rich
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 04:25:50 PM by richhagen »
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