Author Topic: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery  (Read 4027 times)

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Madscientist267

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Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« on: February 25, 2011, 12:38:38 PM »
Amanda -

I've been working with 4 600mAh Lithium Phosphate cells in series, and have come to understand that it's likely you are using this chemistry in your '14V' battery.

I seem to find all good things; stable, overcharge/overdischarge no problem, self balancing in series (due to tolerance to overcharge) and so on and so on.

Charged OTV is right about 3.5V/cell from everything I can gather, including my own experiments.

What I can't find is where the '3.2V' rating on the label comes in, is this the same as the 'dead' voltage, like a lead-acid?

What about lower voltages? Charging heavy I have taken them to 5V/cell, which is apparently not a problem so long as current is down and the cells aren't liberating heat. But they get there FAST from ~3.7V or so and rising.

So where is the bottom 'knee' that indicates they are truly flatlined?

Any help appreciated on this for sure...

Steve
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zap

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2011, 01:10:50 PM »
What I can't find is where the '3.2V' rating on the label comes in, is this the same as the 'dead' voltage, like a lead-acid?

If you're talking about her thundersky batteries, 3.2v (if that's what's written on the label) is most likely the nominal cell voltage... same as Pb's 2.1v/cell... or a "full" cell.

"Empty" is usually around  2.8-2.5v/cell, depending on who's doing the talking.  Much like Pb, draining to close to empty reduces cycle life.

Charging heavy I have taken them to 5V/cell, which is apparently not a problem so long as current is down and the cells aren't liberating heat.
:o :o :o  Careful my man!

commanda

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2011, 02:04:05 PM »
Steve,

Lithium Iron Phosphate, to give them their correct name. LiFePO4 in short-hand.
There are many different "Lithium" technologies. All have different voltages.

Current best practice is to charge to 3.6 volts, no more, to increase cycle life.
Once the battery is full, the terminal voltage rises rapidly.
Once you remove the surface charge, they drop to 3.2 volts, and remain there for most of the discharge cycle.
Low voltage cutoff (LVC) is usually set at 2.7 volts.

Charging is normally managed by a shunt across each cell, to limit the voltage. Basically a precision zener. Coupled by control of the charging current, to drop the current to a reasonable level which can be handled by the shunts. Mostly it's about heat dissipation.

In my setups, the shunt fires an opto-coupler. Then there's some diode logic which generates 2 control signals; Any shunt low and All shunts low.
In the negative lead of the battery, I have 2 paralelled current control paths. One for bulk charge, one for finishing charge. Any shunt low turns off the bulk charge. In the vehicle application, All shunts low goes through an RC time delay of about 10 minutes, then turns off the finishing charge. In the solar application, All shunts low is dis-connected, and I just leave it on trickle charge forever basically.  My scooter charger uses a Meanwell power supply with constant current limiting. The constant current has been modifed downward. By default, the current limit is set by the factory to more than 100% of the rated power output.  The output voltage adjustment range has been tweaked so it puts out 60 volts.  The mains input is switched by a relay. Charging is initiated by a momentary switch in parallel with the contacts. The relay is held in by a current sense circuit.  So when charging is complete, All shunts low has turned off all the current, the relay drops out and the charger switches off. Very clever I thought.

In the solar setup, the bulk charge control is a 100 amp solid state relay.  In the vehicle applications, it's just a mosfet switch. And the finishing charge is controlled by a constant current source with a negative temperature co-efficient. Same circuit I use for powering Led's.

LVC is implemented with a TC54 across each cell, again opto-coupled onto a bus. In the scooter, this signal switches a power transistor, which turns on the brake lights. The motor controller monitors the brake lights, and cuts power when the brakes are applied. Being a slacker, I haven't actually connected this.

In the solar application, the LVC signal fires an RS flip-flop. The output is connected to another solid state relay, which dis-connects the load. A push-button switch manually resets the flip-flop. Flip-flop state is indicated by a bi-colour Led.

In all applications, the logic functions are implemented with a 4093 quad nand schmitt, and some diodes.  Kinda my trade-mark really. Too many diodes and a 4093.

If you're not seeing where the 3.2 volts comes into it, and the cells run at about 3.7 volts whilst dis-charging, then I'd say you've got Lithium Polymer (LiPo).

The original write-up on the scooter BMS is here.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6419.

Since then, the battery arrangement has been changed, the BMS was re-built in a new case, the bulk charge CC source was re-calibrated to be greater than the charge current (fail-safe), and the charger replaced by the single Meanwell 48 volt 350 watt.  But the schematic is mostly correct.

I probably should gather up all the schematics, and take some photos, of my solar setup. One of these days.

Amanda

Zap has replied whilst I was typing this.
Yes, cycle life. Typically, LiFePO4 is quoted as;
2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
3000 cycles at 70% DOD.

How many cycles at 25% DOD is what I want to know. This is where my scooter is mostly operated at.
And pretty much no Peukert effect.

Madscientist267

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 07:31:10 PM »
Quote
If you're not seeing where the 3.2 volts comes into it, and the cells run at about 3.7 volts whilst dis-charging, then I'd say you've got Lithium Polymer (LiPo).

No, no... I understand what that they are referring to 'nominal' voltage, but depending on use, manufacturer, etc, this can mean different things.

To me, for example, a lead acid cell is rated at 2V, but that's dead to me. Wanted to see where the knees were in the curves basically, and I know you had mentioned using a 14V battery, which is determinately what I came up with when I packed 4 of the cells into a battery.

They're definitely LiFePO4, indicated directly as such right on the labels, and the 'english' version as well, written out. Add the "3.2V" rating, and it's clear. :)

I guess I built up such premonitions about Li-Ion and all the hidden dangers that I really took the cautious road when I first started playing with these. Slow, parallel charging to equalize the cells, etc etc...

Then I started reading place after place that they are virtually indestructible in terms of violent reactions from mistreating them...

The 4 I'm using are perfect for what I'm using them for, but just wanted an idea so when I hit them with a meter, I get a rough SOC.

The only thing thats not entirely clear now is how do they handle overcharging? Kills lifespan? Etc etc.

Steve
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commanda

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 09:25:41 PM »
The only way to know SOC is using an accumulating AHr meter.  Terminal voltage is essentially flat from 5% to 95% DOD.
I can give you a schematic and Picaxe code if you want to build one like mine.
Or you can use one or two DocWattsons. But that's not elegant.
I use a single DocWattson on my scooter.

Do not overcharge them. You will kill cycle life. And some Lithium technologies will complain about it pyrotechnically.  Many early adopters of Lithium batteries have burnt their house/garage down.  Despite the advice given by several on ES, there is no way I would try and charge more than one cell in series without a BMS. And also don't discharge them to zero volts. They may not come back. I have a pack here right now, belonged to a friend. BMS failed, ran 4 cells down to zero. I'm trying to recover them now using a bench supply and charging them individually. 3 look like they're coming back. But one is toast. Don't know yet whether the capacity has been affected.

Knees:
3.6 volts is close enough to 100% charged. You can go higher, and squeeze a teensy bit more into it, but the diminution of cycle life far outweighs the gain in normal use.

3.2 volts is nominal. Like I said, flat from 5% to 95% (roughly), not counting sag from IR losses across the internal resistance.

2.7 volts is normally considered flat. This will usually occur under heavy load due to IR sag. You can squeeze a teensy bit more out of it by going lower, some people use 2.1 volts. Again, cycle life may be diminished.

C rate.
Most typical LiFePO4 are rated at 2 or 3 C discharge. Some exotics (think big $$$$$) can do more.
The 40AHr pack in my scooter regularly sees peak currents of 120 Amps.

Amanda

Madscientist267

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 10:02:43 PM »
Ok good deal.

One more question...

What about shelf life? Do they suffer from the same BS that LiPo does? For example, temperature, SoC dependent storage lifespan?

Reason I ask is that the AA versions (@600mAh) right now are dirt cheap. Would buying a bunch and having them sit have extraordinary shelf life problems like a LiPo sees?

Steve
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commanda

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 12:44:05 AM »
I think I read somewhere that the recommended storage was at 50% DOD. As for temperature, I do know my scooter doesn't perform quite as well in the middle of winter. More sag.

If those cheap AA's are on ebay & from China, be warned. Many are production line defects spirited out the back door. Not to say they won't work.  Don't be surprised if actual capacity is significantly less than advertised. Discharge C rates are often highly inflated as well. There are also many fake A123's available. YMMV of course.

And your definition of cheap may be different to mine. For example, the scooter pack, and the solar pack,  works out to about 60 cents per WattHour. $1200 for 2KWHr's. Includes shipping.
At that rate, your AA's should be about $1.15 each.

zap

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 12:37:09 PM »
I think I read somewhere that the recommended storage was at 50% DOD.

That's mentioned a few times on ES but others have stated "charge 'em up full before you let 'em sit".
From what I've read and what I've noticed on my cells, I'd say the jury is still out on any lithium chemistry and shelf life.
I don't think there's enough of a track record yet... not to mention the formulas that make up the cells seem to be tweaked so often it's hard to find a base line?

taylorp035

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 12:44:32 PM »
It really depends on which LiFeP04 battery you are talking about.  Yours are obviously not A123's, so I don't know the exact answer.  A123's are 100% empty at 2v, which you should never go any lower.  By the time you get down to 2.5v, they are 99.9% empty.  I imagine the same is true for the other brands.

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2011, 03:43:59 PM »
I just took a look at the spec for the cells in my bicycle battery pack, which contains 26650 LiMnNi cells with 3.7V/4Ah nominal charge. http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/5161.pdf

They're delivered 80% charged, and it's my understanding that that is the recommended storage % too. It is stated that shelf life are 6 months, and self discharge rate are <=0.5%/month. Though, it is also stated that they should be used within 3 months of storage?! ;D
Shouldn't think longer storage time would hurt... :)

These cells are considered empty at 2.5V. (discharge from 100% down to 2.5V = rated capacity)

Fyi... :)
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commanda

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Re: Commanda - Question about '14V' Lithium Phospate battery
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 04:13:19 PM »
Terminal Voltage (the point at which the batteries are considered flat).

Quote
2.7 volts is normally considered flat. This will usually occur under heavy load due to IR sag.

All batteries have Internal Resistance. When considering what voltage is considered flat, you have to take into account how much current is being drawn at the time.  The battery at rest will have a higher voltage than a battery which is delivering current at it's max C rate.

But, like all batteries, running them to 100% DOD will decrease the cycle life.

Amanda