Author Topic: Need some help getting oriented  (Read 3910 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Need some help getting oriented
« on: July 08, 2006, 01:15:04 PM »
Howdy all, this is my first "real" (non-test) post here.


About 4 years ago it became clear to me that I was going to begin the "remote living" phase of life.  We have a piece of land in Colorado, not too far from Woodland Park.  That's a couple hours south of the otherpower folks, at a somewhat higher altitude.


I started out by purchasing a Grumman 12-foot stepvan.  Stupid really, I should have bought an old motorhome and gutted it instead, the insurance for the Grumman is outrageous.


Anyway there was a large compartment under the driver's seat where I stashed 4 of the biggest die-hard deep cycle rv batteries I could lay hands on.  Used to be batteries were rated in amp-hours, but these are something like 850 cold-cranking-amps each, whatever that means.  Ventillated it and ran the cables (12v) up to the inverter which is on the dash.  The inverter is rated at 2kw good for 4kw bursts.  Put a die-hard deep cycle battery charger under the dash so that whenever I'm connected to 110vac it'll charge the batteries.


We've been living up here for a little over 3 years now.  Every bit of our electricity has to date come from a gasoline generator.  I wore out a Honda EU2000 at about 10,000 hours.  (If anyone needs help modifying one of these so it'll run indefinitely with a quick swap-out of gerry cans, let me know.)  I'm currently wearing out a Honda EU3000 which has perhaps 12,000 hours on it.


Given the price of gasoline, and the fact that I keep wearing out generators, something has to give.


We're living in a 20-foot camp trailer until we scrounge up the money to build a real house.  I have the trailer's 2 smallish 12v batteries connected to the van's bank of 4.


But I do not have sufficient battery power.  I forgot to mention that after setting up the van with a battery bank and inverter, I stuffed what amounts to an entire machine and welding shop into it.  Gotta have your tools to build a house, and I use them to try and make a living.


When the battery bank shows fully-charged (indicated by the battery charger) I can run the workshop off batteries for perhaps 2 hours.  Then the batteries have fallen to about 10.4v and the inverter cuts off.  If the temperature is above freezing, I can turn the generator off at night and the 12v blower motor for the trailer's propane heater will run until morning.


But this is just not enough.  I need (as Tooltime Tim would say) More Power!


We almost always have a stiff breeze here, since we're on top of a ridge.  So a wind turbine is a no-brainer.  We almost always have good sun here, since we're on top of a ridge so some PV cells are a no-brainer.


But when I'm in the workshop there's a constant 1000-1500w drain.  If the trailer is hooked into the 110v circuit, its battery charger pulls it closer to 1200-1600w.


I need a larger battery bank to begin with.  However since there are zero buildings on our land I have no place to put it, the van is stuffed full.


So the first magical trick is to build a small honest-to-gosh building that can house a large battery bank, the inverter, and generator.


But before that, I need to figure out just how large the battery bank will need to be.  That's where I really need the help.


Currently my battery bank is 12v.  I see some benefit to 12v since it's what my current inverter likes.  It's also what the trailer uses.  And when I get the cash to start building a house, you can bet it will use a lot of 12v technology torn out of RV's.


But I'm not sure if using a 12v bank will cost me something.


Can you guys help me get oriented here a little bit?  How large a battery bank am I going to need to pull 1200-1500 watts out for about 12 hours a day while there is sun and wind, and pull 500 or so watts out overnight when it'll be dark and cold?  Can I continue with my current inverter or do I need to spend even more money?  Money is a primary issue around here.


Any help/guidance would be appreciated.  btw, I've set up IRC so I can get on chat whenever.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 01:15:04 PM by (unknown) »

Shadow

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 473
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2006, 08:02:51 AM »


Welcome aboard,


             A couple things to get you started, You need to get rid of your 'cold cranking amp' batteries and get deep cycle. Cranking amps are just that, made for cranking your engine over. Next thing I would look at is a diesel generator. Ideally a 6-10 hp Listeroid that runs about 650-850 rpm.Have that hooked to a 5-7kw generator. That will give you lots of power to run your tools and charge your batteries etc. Then as you get a wind turbine built and solar panels added, you'll use the diesel less and less until it becomes your back up source. Good Luck!

« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 08:02:51 AM by Shadow »

Charlane

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2006, 09:12:59 AM »
This is somewhat of the boat that I am in.  I have 6 deep cycle 6V golf cart batts with 3 6V solar panels and trace 35 charge controller and a Chicago electric 12v 2000 watt inverter.  I can get a few things to work but I can't get this huge fan to work that pulls 4.0 amps and I'm not getting it.  If I connect the inverter to two running cars, the fan works great.  But it won't work with my 6 batts.  Now, the charge on the batts is below 12V at 11.53 but I can't seem to get the charge over this....yet....and I have had the batts tested with good results.  It's just that I haven't gotten a full deep charge on these yet with the solar panels and these are connected in 18v so I get a full 27 amp charge.  


So do I need more batts and all to charge longer than a few days (been a little rainey lately)?  I want to run skill saws and other equipment on this, too.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 09:12:59 AM by Charlane »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2006, 09:12:47 PM »
The batteries that I have -are- deep cycle RV batteries.  They just rate them in CCA for some reason.


I have no real problem with the Honda, it's very quiet and pretty reliable.  It's the price of gasoline that I have a problem with.


Thanks.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 09:12:47 PM by random »

WXYZCIENCE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2006, 09:41:11 PM »
Charlane, more info please, are the batteries 220 amp hour? Do you have a 36volt or three 6volt solar cells. What wattage are the solar cells? Joe
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 09:41:11 PM by WXYZCIENCE »

WXYZCIENCE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2006, 09:46:47 PM »
Ramdom, how old are the deep cycle batteries? I had some and they did not work good after a couple of years. Joe.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 09:46:47 PM by WXYZCIENCE »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2006, 09:47:55 PM »
It sounds like you need to do some diagnosing to figure out what the problem is.  


So, you have the 6 batteries connected in 3 paralleled pairs of 2 in series to give you 12v output?  And you have the 3 solar panels connected in series to give you 18v which you're hooking to what's effectively a 12v batt bank?


I would think that an 18v source would be able to pull the batt bank up above 11.53 volts.  I charge my batt bank with a 110v battery charger when the generator is running, and it pulls them up to about 12.5v.


I think I'd try testing the two subsystems separately.  I'd use a battery charger to see that the batt bank actually does charge up to 12v minimum.  I'd check the voltage level output on the solar panels.


Not being a solar panel guy, I don't know what kind of voltage output curve they provide.  It may be that to actually get each of them up to 6v you have to hold the panel an inch from the sun or something.


Sorry I can't help more.  I'd make very sure that I knew what I actually had and not just rely on the manufacturer's specs.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 09:47:55 PM by random »

maker of toys

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2006, 01:22:15 AM »
I agree with the poster who recommended one of the listeroids.  A big slow engine loafing along will last longer (and often will do better for fuel economy) than a little one working hard.


(useless trivia: the 'typical' reciprocating internal combustion engine will give best FUEL efficiency when running at whatever RPM it generates peak torque at, and loaded to about 85% of the maximum torque it can produce at that speed.  In case anyone cares)


other than that, i recommend (as others have posted in other threads) to start small when building a turbine and gen.  I'm slowly piecing togeather a 8' machine for low winds, and I've already caught myself in a couple of dumb mistakes that are cheap to fix now, but would  be finantially straining at the 17-20' level that will give the kind of power you seem to need for your shop.


too, there's a school of thought here that says "build several small machines rather than one big one" on the premiss that, while you will have more failures, no one failure will leave you vompletely in the dark.  (too, as the Dans have learned, towers for big machines are a whole 'nother kettle of fish.)


Marine starting batteries are often sold as "deep cycle" but have a higher number of somewhat thinner plates than a true deep cycle so they can perform dual service.  Such batteries often have a CCA rating.


--break--


For the person having fan/inverter/charging troubles: when in the real world, all voltages are nominal; ie  a "6 V" solar panel will most likely make less than 6 volts when connected to a battery or other load.  you may need to add a couple of cells to each solar array so that your loaded voltage (use a power resistor to test) is above 6.3 volts. . . . something more like 6.6 volts, more if you have a blocking diode. . .  your milage may vary; my solar experience ends just above the level of solar-powered yard-lights.  (lots of overcast and fog in my area)


other problems may be that the panels are relatively small and so are taking a long time to perform the "bulk" charge of your batteries.  this will be particularly apparent in inclement weather like you are apparently having.  (I didn't see if you posted a wattage number for the panels or an AH rating for the batteries, I appologise if I  missed it)


also,in any battery system,  be diligent in keeping your cables and battery clamps clean and tight to each-other.  I once had a truck that I had to regularly jumpstart even thought the battery was fully charged.  I later learned that I could jump it from its own battery, which got me some odd looks at gas stations. . .  It turned out that the bolt holding negative battery cable on the engine block was stripped out, and was presenting too much resistance for the starter to work, even though the alternator would charge at full rate, etc, etc.


hope that helps. . .

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 01:22:15 AM by maker of toys »

maker of toys

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 221
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2006, 02:19:06 AM »
oops. . .  skipped the thrust of the original question. . .


the tradeoff boils down to:


availablilty of 'off the shelf' components  against transmission losses.


if you stick with 12V, you will need more copper to get the power from whereever it is to whereever you want it; ie, bigger cable down the tower, bigger cable from the solar arrays, bigger cable from the power house to the shop, the house, the well, etc, etc. Copper is expensive; I'll leave it you you to strike the balance between the cost of copper and the cost of equipment for whatever voltage you choose.


to speak to the battery capacity question:


as a rule of thumb, you want a typical (24 hour?) charge cycle to pull the batteries to about 80% charge. . . that is, if you have batteries with a rated capacity of 1000AH, then you want to avoid using more than 200AH per charge cycle.  Doing so will give the largest number of charge cycles before replacement of your bank.  this rule of thumb also gives you the advantage of a considerable emergency reserve capacity.


there is some arcana that I can't claim to completly understand that speaks to the number of battery strings that it is advisable to run in parallel; other arcana exists about batteries in series. A long google search will turn up arguments to support all manner of connections schemes.

 . . .  the feeling that I take away is that batteries are happier in series than parallel, which limits the capcity that can be built into a 12 V system.


All in all, my inclination is to use the highest system voltage possible to reduce copper and inverter losses all through the system.  (but then, my system will have several LONG runs in it, so copper loss is a big concern to me.)


given your stated power usage in the shop, it'll be obvious to you that trying to supply your whole demand soley on batteries is . . .um. . . unreasonable. . . . shall we say?  Wind and solar will make up some of the difference, but for starting big loads and welding, you'll still want some sort of peaking plant, which usally means a genset. . . . but you will be able to reduce your fossil power component using the equipment discussed here.


-Dan

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 02:19:06 AM by maker of toys »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 07:49:56 AM »
Joe, the batteries are about 4-1/2 years old.  They have been ill-maintained, I put them under the floorboards then misremembered them to be the sealed no-maintenance type.  Then had no distilled water.  I am not so much concerned about those batteries at this point.  I want to put together a new batt bank design to which they can contribute as they are able to.


However, they seem to work about the same now as they did when new.


I think silly as it sounds that part of the problem is the inverter.  It cuts out when the batteries are still at 10.4 volts.  I have a feeling that this is keeping them from ever truely taking on a deep charge.


I also have a feeling that there is material already on this board that would help me understand the deep-charge vs surface-charge issue, anyone know where it is offhand?  I'll do some digging later on when I have more time.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 07:49:56 AM by random »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 07:55:53 AM »
"I agree with the poster who recommended one of the listeroids.  A big slow engine loafing along will last longer (and often will do better for fuel economy) than a little one working hard."


I don't really disagree with that person either.  However, I already have the Honda and it does the job.  I want to get the rest of my system built up to the point where the Honda is purely a backup.  I doubt that I'll ever buy a diesel, there are other backups.  For example my arc welder is gasoline powered and can be used as a 5kw generator.  Noisy as the dickens, but a good backup.  Running a 12v line from a running vehicle to the batt-bank can also work as a backup.


It isn't really backups that I have issues with.  It's upgrading the overall system to tbe point where the backups -are- backups instead of primary suppliers.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 07:55:53 AM by random »

luv2weld

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 08:07:20 AM »
Hey random,

I can appreciate what you are going through. This is not an easy life. Been living it myself for several years. Just down the road from you (between Buena Vista and Salida) at 9600 feet.

The first thing I would recommend is to go to this site---

http://www.kansaswindpower.net/Worksheet.htm

and try to figure out your usage. You will probably end up with a headache from trying to figure this out, but it will be worth it. First, try to figure out what you can get along without, as in---do you (your wife, girlfriend, kids), really need to use a hair drier every day?? Do you just have to use an electric toaster?? etc. You may get some resistance when you ask these questions. My girlfriend thought I was nuts. But after explaining it, she sat down and said "I would like to have my computer for this many hours a day, my TV for this many hours, lights ,etc.

You may not be able to do it in one sitting, so you'll probably need to either print it out and keep it handy or take notes in a little notebook.

Once you work your way through the worksheet, you will have a much better handle on what you need and then you can start to figure out how to get there.

Anything I can do, (short of paying your bills, that is)----

luv2weld@hughes.net


Ralph

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:07:20 AM by luv2weld »
The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 08:09:47 AM »
"if you stick with 12V, you will need more copper to get the power from whereever it is to whereever you want it; ie, bigger cable down the tower, bigger cable from the solar arrays, bigger cable from the power house to the shop, the house, the well, etc, etc. Copper is expensive; I'll leave it you you to strike the balance between the cost of copper and the cost of equipment for whatever voltage you choose."


Understood, thanks.  I'm not so concerned about the cost of copper right now.  I'm more concerned with figuring out total system operation.


I envision the powerhouse as holding the batt bank, the inverter, and a backup generator or two.  From the powerhouse there will be a 12v line to the house but it won't need to carry much current at all.  There will also be a 120v line to the house but that's not a 12v issue.  We're talking about runs of 50 feet or less.


I see the batt bank as the core of my system.  Granted individual batteries come and go but the bank remains as the core.  Something goes in, something comes out.  If I go with a 12v bank the 12v line to the house is a given.  If I make the batt bank some other voltage like 48v then I have to fiddle up a 12v line to the house.  Not sure if that makes sense or not.


"given your stated power usage in the shop, it'll be obvious to you that trying to supply your whole demand soley on batteries is . . .um. . . unreasonable. . . . shall we say?  Wind and solar will make up some of the difference, but for starting big loads and welding, you'll still want some sort of peaking plant, which usally means a genset. . . . but you will be able to reduce your fossil power component using the equipment discussed here."


One might think that.  But the workshop was expressly designed to operate off the small batt bank that is under the van's floorboards.  The lathe for example takes only 600watts max.  The arc-welder has its own gasoline power and serves as a backup generator.  The existing inverter and battery bank supply adequate power for all start-up loads.  I think the largest startup load in the place is 6a.


The inverter has a watts-used digital readout.  When I'm running the shop off batteries it usually reads about 750watts.  So I figure if I can supply 1200 watts power to the battery bank during daylight hours, maybe 1500 watts, that will add sufficient charge to get through the night hours when the drain is perhaps 450watts worstcase.


I have no idea if this is making sense to anyone else or not.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:09:47 AM by random »

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 08:56:59 AM »
Random;




I think silly as it sounds that part of the problem is the inverter.  It cuts out when the batteries are still at 10.4 volts.



Uh, well, that is pretty standard point at which a "12 volt" battery is considered drained.Doing that repeatedly will be very unfriendly to them. Your inverter is pretty much doing its job protecting your batteries.


As someone else stated a bit further down in the comments, the voltages cited are "nominal". I charge my 12 volt bank to 14.4 volts and try to hold it there awhile. I consider 11.5 volts as pretty low and running them down to 10.5 volts would be emergency only abuse. I actually have 2 banks. One for wireless internet access at 12 volts and my main bank at 24 volts. I double these above voltages for the 24 volt bank.


Your inverter is pretty much doing its job protecting your batteries.


Of course, the inverter senses the battery voltage after it travels thru your DC wiring to the inverter. Small cable could be dropping the apparent voltage at the inverter. Keep battery to inverter wiring as short as possible and use as heavy a cable as you can find / afford. Try this: If possible measure the voltage drop across your positive battery cable [one lead on + battery terminal one on + inverter terminal] check this drop at full load on the inverter. If it is more than, say, .1 volts you probably should use heavier battery cables. Less drop is better.


Just some ideas.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:56:59 AM by TomW »

Countryboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 10:28:57 AM »
Hi Random,

  There are wannabe deep cycle batteries, and then there are true deep cycle batteries.


Any deep cycle battery that gives a rating in cold cranking amps is a wannabe deep cycle.  That battery is designed to give maximum power for short periods of time, to crank over an engine to get it started.


A battery with a CCA rating has many thin lead electrodes inside the battery.  They have a ton of surface area on them, but they don't hold a deep charge.


A deep cycle battery with an amp hour rating has fewer thich lead electrodes inside it.  It doesn't have as much surface area to provide as much of a charge at any given time, but since the lead electrodes are thicker, you can draw power for a longer period of time.  These are your true deep cycle batteries.


The marine deep cycle batteries which give a rating in CCA are a hybrid cross between a true deep cycle battery and an automotive battery.  The electrodes are a little thicker than a regular auto battery, but essentially it is still an auto battery.  It will never give the performance a true deep cycle battery will.


I would recommend that you get some true deep cycle batteries.  A lot of folks get 6V deep cycle batteries and run them in series to provide 12V.  Trojan T105s tend to be popular.


The rule of thumb I have always heard is that you should never draw your batteries down more than 20% or 30% if you want any length of battery life.  Figure up how many amp hours you are going to use between full chargings, apply the 20%-30% rule, and then calculate how big of a battery bank is necessary to fit your needs.


1200-1500 watts for 12 hours at 12V is a requirement of 1200-1500 amp hours capacity.  For the application you are looking at, you will need a battery bank of probably 4500-7500 amp hours. (using the 20%-30% rule on 1500 ah drain.)


My advice would be to quit trying to use the batteries to power your workshop.  You are simply consuming way too much power.  Use the generator to supply the workshop power, and use the battery bank to supply the house power.


I would also recommend that you consider a small hydro generator if you have any streams on your property to provide a constant source of power.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 10:28:57 AM by Countryboy »

Countryboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 10:42:27 AM »
Also, you should be aware that 1200-1500 watts for 12 hours every day is 14.4Kw-18Kwh a day.  That's 432Kwh-540Kwh monthly consumption, and that doesn't even figure in the other 12 hours in the day.


Supposedly, the average American family uses 800Kwh per month.  I know several grid powered homes that don't use as much power in 24 hours as you consume in 12.


You really need to learn conservation.  It's something like 5 times easier to conserve power than it is to produce that power.


I'd recommend you read this page:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_conservation.html


Dan said it best.  The level of your power consumption suggests some city slicker habits that need broken.

City Slicker Habits-- We're not joking here either. People who move to a remote area and expect to run their solar-powered house the same way they did in town are in for a rude surprise (ruined batteries).  Those of you who have spent a year or more reading by kerosene lamp or candle, hauling water in 5-gallon buckets, and using a stereo powered by AA batteries will marvel at how wonderful even a single solar panel and battery are--and will conserve power to keep the system working for as long as possible!  

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 10:42:27 AM by Countryboy »

richhagen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Country: us
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 03:36:19 PM »
Hi Random, You will fit in well here I think.  I don't consider myself to be an expert, but here are my thoughts on your remote power plans;


Set a goal and work your way towards it.  That is what my father told me, I think it was a quote from some famous person long time ago.  


It applies to your situation in that you need to figure out where you want to end up, and then piece together the equipment to get there such that it will be useful in the finished system.  


Most successful remote applications that I have visited seem to have one big thing in common, --redundancy  Usually at least three sources of power to their batteries, Solar, Wind, and a diesel for backup for example.  If you are lucky and have a water source, that works too.  The sun will not always shine, and the wind will not always blow, but often when one is not producing the other will, think of those windy dark winter days, or those calm sunny ones.  If neither of those are generating or one is broken, then a good diesel backup is great to have.  


The batteries will be the heart of your system. That is where the power you generate will be stored.  The reason that you see the amp rating on the label of the batteries is that they apparently double as starting batteries.  Starting batteries usually have more surface area on the plates for amps, but thinner plates.  Generally for true deep cycle storage batteries, you will not see a CCA rating because they are not designed for starting and the ratio of amps drawn to amphours stored will be much smaller.  Also, for virtually all battery chemistry types, the deeper you cycle it the fewer cycles you get from the battery.  I read from one manufacturer that in order to draw the most power from the batteries over time, for that particular battery, the bank should be sized for a 20% depth of discharge.  That means that if you wanted to use 20 amp hours from when the batteries were fully charged, ideally you would need a one hundred amp hour bank.  Batteries cost money to initially buy, so most of the sites I have seen have battery banks that get discharged a little deeper even during normal use.  10.4 volts is pretty near completely discharged.  Although as was pointed out above in another response, with the voltage drop in the wiring and the amp load, the actual battery voltage was likely a bit higher on your batteries.  


You should read over the excellent battery fact page that the hosts here put together. It is located here:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery.html

If you haven't already, you will probably find it interesting to check out the wind and solar especially, but probably all of the links on the bottom of the front page at www.otherpower.com


One of the first choices you will have to make is what voltage you will wish to operate your system at.  Take a look at DANB's system closeley.  He is running a remote house and a shop, much as you wish to do.  He originally had a 12V system and eventually switched to 48V because of the ability to move much more power in much thinner wire, and with smaller diodes and heat sinks, ect.  If you were using just 2500 watts in your shop, at 12V that would mean moving at least 208 amps from your batteries to your inverter, plus any inefficiencies.  Since you will want to keep those batteries charged, that probably means some pretty good amps into them from your sources at times as well.  If your peak draw with your tools is 4000 watts, well, think of the cable size and and runs you will need to connect everything, the diodes, heatsinks, number of diversion controllers, ect to handle the amps on the generation and dumping sides of it as well.  I am not sure of the longterm life of that Chicago inverter, even though it is named after my home town, I suspect it was not made for continuous heavy duty use.  I could be wrong on that, but I suspect you will want a proven heavy duty inverter anyway, like a Trace or Outback inverter ultimately.  My thinking is that you should look at the operating voltage, make a decision on where you want to end up, and head in that direction.  


You have the option of buying new batteries and rigging sets of 4 in parallel and then rewiring to 48V later on.  The same is true of solar panels, and with some solar panel charge controllers, like the Trace/Xantrex C40 which I have and have knowlege of, you can change the voltage for them by switching a jumper inside.  I have one that I used on 12V in the past and switched it to a charge control mode at 48V.  That way, for now, you can operate your panels and batteries with your current inverter on 12V for now, and when you inverter kicks the bucket, or if you decide to upgrade it, you can switch to 48V relatively easy.  


Because I think the solar panels are generally simpler to install and easier to keep operational I would probably start my renewable energy with them.  I have some eva encapsulated panels of the type that typically come with a 25 year warranty, that are probably 25 years old, and generally still work fine.  I figure that unless someone breaks them or steals them, I may never have to mess with them.  I would not be so certain of the ones with a front face of epoxy or the amourphous designs that one typically sees with a shorter or no warranty.  


I suspect you will want wind as well, so once you get going with this you will have to figure out what type of turbine is for you.  As for wind, changing between 12 and 48 volts will depend on what turbine you have.  If you ultimately build a dual rotor axial flux machine, all you would have to do is make a new cast stator, the rest of the mill would remain unchanged.  If you have a motor conversion, you would have to rewind the stator as well, although I have seen a few where more winding connections were ran out from the stator so that the voltage could be switched.  Zubbly would be an expert here on that.  With careful design, you could accomplish the same thing with an axial type machine as well.  Assuming the voltage rating on the rectifiers is high enough, you could use the same setup.  In general with this setup, if you have something like the C-40 charge controller, you would connect the output of the turbine through the rectifiers to the battery bank, and use the C-40 as a diversion load controller to turn on a dump load when the voltage of the batteries climbs too high.  Actually, you might ultimately need more than one if your generating capacity is such that in high wind and sun it can be sustained in excess of 40 amps.  (actually, you won't want to connect a dump load at 40 amps to it, I should run and check, but I believe the rating is less in that mode, and I recall a post where someone smoked one at 40 amps and was wondering why.  I bet someone reading this will know the answer off the top of their head.)


If you do ultimately switch to 48V, then you can still use your 12V stuff if you get a dc/dc converter.  You might be tempted to connect them across a 12 volt section of your 48V string, but don't do it because it will likely ultimately lead to over charging part of your bank and prematurely ruining some of your batteries.  For example, I picked up a couple of approximately 12.5 amp at 12v, 48V to 12V converters off of Ebay for about $15 in the past.  


Welcome aboard, Random, Rich Hagen

 

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 03:36:19 PM by richhagen »
A Joule saved is a Joule made!

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 08:19:29 PM »
"As someone else stated a bit further down in the comments, the voltages cited are "nominal". I charge my 12 volt bank to 14.4 volts and try to hold it there awhile. I consider 11.5 volts as pretty low and running them down to 10.5 volts would be emergency only abuse. I actually have 2 banks. One for wireless internet access at 12 volts and my main bank at 24 volts. I double these above voltages for the 24 volt bank."


Thanks very much for the info Tom.  I suspect you're the same TomW that I ran into on the chat board the other day?


"Keep battery to inverter wiring as short as possible and use as heavy a cable as you can find / afford."


I don't think that's an issue, Tom.  The run from the farthest battery to the inverter is maybe 6 feet.  The cables are something like 000, I forget but the copper in the things is as big around as my little finger.


It would be real nice if I knew the capacity of the batteries in amp-hours, but so it goes.  


I've been thinking that I want to stick with a 12v batt bank, it has a number of advantages at least in my situation.  The new bank may be all 6v golfcart batts paralleled up.


The only real concern I have about a 12v batt bank is a wind turbine.  If it's putting out a variable number of volts that can go way up there, I'll need to figure out how to limit the voltage to the batt bank I guess, is that right?

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:19:29 PM by random »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 08:28:29 PM »
Countryboy, thanks for the explanation about deep-cycle batteries.  Truth in advertising, huh?


I seem to have given the impression that I normally run the shop off batteries.  Not the case.  There are times when I will run it off batteries, but not often.


My thinking is that if I have solar panels and a wind turbine putting power into the batt bank, then I would be able to run the shop off it.  Currently I have neither.


The shop generally gets used for 6-8 hours during the day.  We're in a little microclimate here, the times when we have neither wind nor sun are few and far between.


Overnight power draw is only 12v once I turn off my computer, which I can run on 12v if the batteries are strong enough.  And overnight power draw will drop by 90% once we get a house put together and can use wood for heating instead of propane.


Basically I want to use wind/sun as the driving power, passing it through the batt bank as a load leveller.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:28:29 PM by random »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2006, 08:58:29 PM »
"Also, you should be aware that 1200-1500 watts for 12 hours every day is 14.4Kw-18Kwh a day.  That's 432Kwh-540Kwh monthly consumption, and that doesn't even figure in the other 12 hours in the day.


Supposedly, the average American family uses 800Kwh per month.  I know several grid powered homes that don't use as much power in 24 hours as you consume in 12.


You really need to learn conservation.  It's something like 5 times easier to conserve power than it is to produce that power."


I understand.  I'm in a pretty absurd and untenable position here.  I have been for the past 3 years.  We keep getting through the day.


For example I have an unlimited supply of wood but I'm heating the trailer with propane.  Worse, in the winter if we want to prevent the trailer's holding tanks from freezing, we have to run the generator 24x7.


One thing at a time.  Money's the key.  

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 08:58:29 PM by random »

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2006, 09:15:14 PM »
Thanks Rich, lots of good stuff in your reply.


I think it was someone else who has a Chicago inverter.  I just went out to the shop and dug up the manual for the one I have.  Says nothing about Chicago Electric anywhere I could find.  I've used their stuff before -- made in China mostly, I have one of their water pumps hooked to my cistern.  Hey, it works.


The inverter that I have is a "Power Bright" model AED2000, 2000w good for 4000w bursts.  Seemed like the best for the buck 4 years ago when I bought it, don't know how it stacks up with others.


Anyway the philosophy I'm taking is this.  I have a bunch of components.  I want to reuse all of them if I can since I don't have to buy them.  I want to set it up in a way that is modular so I can upgrade it piece by piece.


If we ever get the money to build a cabin, huge amounts of our energy usage will just disappear.  Right now we don't even have the money for a building permit, one day at a time.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 09:15:14 PM by random »

nanotech

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2006, 09:30:27 PM »
Actually you won't need to limit the voltage the windmill puts out.  The only concern will be a diverter for when your batteries are fully charged.


Your battery bank will pull the voltage from the wind generator down to thier voltage all the way up until they are no longer drawing in amps (fully charged).  At that point you'll need a charge controller (I think) to divert the power from the mill to your dump load.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 09:30:27 PM by nanotech »

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2006, 09:48:24 PM »


I suspect you're the same TomW that I ran into on the chat board the other day?



Random;


Guilty as charged. I do host and run the IRC and lurk in there usually but not as active as I used to be.


Hope you felt welcomed and return, I don't actually remember chatting with you in there but that would not be surprising, I keep popping in and out and I participate in several online communities.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 09:48:24 PM by TomW »

cyplesma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2006, 04:17:25 PM »
//Set a goal and work your way towards it.  That is what my father told me, I think it was a quote from some famous person long time ago. //


There is a movie quote from a movie called "One Crazy Summer"


With No Plan, there's no action.

With No Action, there's no goal.

With No Goal, there's no Victory.


I probably should watch the movie again for the exact wording but that's basically it.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 04:17:25 PM by cyplesma »

dinges

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1294
  • Country: nl
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2006, 06:10:37 PM »
I once made power curves (voltage vs. time, for a constant discharge current) of my sealed gell-cell batteries. I normally loaded till 11.0V, but for one battery I decided to try whether going as low as 10.00 V( this was 'allowable', according to the datasheet) would give more capacity (in Ah). It doesn't. The extra Ah are almost negligeable.


Battery voltage drops very sharply as the battery gets almost completely discharged. So much so, that in my case the drop from 11.0 to 10.0 V only took a few minutes. Whereas the total test (from full till 11.0V) took about 1.5 hrs.


This should give you an idea that it's absolutely stupid to discharge batteries too deep.  It will give you practically no extra energy in return, but will SEVERLY limit the lifespan of the batteries.


Peter.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 06:10:37 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

random

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Need some help getting oriented
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2006, 09:10:51 PM »
nanotech, that's pretty much what I was thinking about when I mumbled noises about limiting the voltage.  Sloppy writer confesses.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 09:10:51 PM by random »