Can they be saved?

[drjeseuss]

  Recently a friend of mine bought 5 floor scrubbers at auction.  He's selling them without the batteries to lower shipping weight.  I've been tossing the idea of acquiring the batteries from him, but I'm not sure they'll be worth the trouble.  3 of the scrubbers have 6 Trojan T-145 6v and the other two have 6 each of another brand (unsure of make/model) of equivilant 6v batteries.  When the scrubbers were retired, they were functional, but I'm unsure of the battery life at that point.  I have concerns about the cuirrent state of the batteries!  For one, they're being stored under a plastic sheet under about a foot of snow! (Bad for them, I know!)  My next concern is that several of the batteries seem to be taking damage due to the cold causing the positive post to "swell" stressing the case around the post (likely due to freezing).  Upon opening the batteries, most have such low levels the fluid cannot be seen, while others are viewable but well below the plate tops.  I checked voltage only so far, and have found several in the 3.5-4.5v range.  Most are around 1.5-2.5v range.

  My first thought is that the cold, underfilled, and likely discharged batteries are giving low volts due to their current situation.  My hope is that warming the batteries to 70 degrees or so, then topping off the water level, then charging maybe they'll be proper again.  My concern is that the low fluid and or freeze will prevent them from being saved at all.  Should I even attempt to top off and charge these?  Would a desulfation/equilization be helpful?

  So, first off, should I attempt to salvage these?  And if so, what would be the best course of action to properly see the best results from them.  For the price (free) I'd hate to see 30 T-145's go to waste.  Then again, maybe they already have.  Thoughts?

[Volvo farmer]

What is your goal? What do you want to use these batteries for?

Lead acid batteries have pretty good scrap value right now. If you can get all the batteries for free than you are certainly ahead monetarily because they are worth at least $3 each just for scrap, possibly more.

Visible plates? Bad. Stored outside in freezing weather at 2V? Bad. 30 batteries to pick and choose from? Good. I bet you could find four or eight with some decent life left in them. Take the others to the recyclers and cash in.

[drjeseuss]

As far as use, there is no specific plan for this.  More or less, as a cheap "experiment set" to try things on.  My first such project is a car alternator(130 amp)/mower engine (5 hp) generator.  As such, the battery would more or less act as a voltage stabilizer to absorb variances in alt output giving a more steady output to the inverter (1500 watt).  I figure as this use, it wouldn't take much of a battery as the load will basically be driven from the alternator output.  In the future (probably spring when things warm up a bit) I'd like to play with wind generation, and solar on a small scale to get my feet wet.  I don't plan to run my house from this battery bank, but would like to have enough capacity to see results.

  Locally, we can dump off the batteries for $7.00 each as scrap/refurb, so it's a decent way to get rid of them.  But if any are even somewhat salvageable, I'd likely never get ahold of any for $7.00 each.

  If I were to try saving these, what's the best approach?  I've heard to fill just to cover the plates, charge fully (as possible), top off water level, then do a controlled power drain.  Next charge and equalize to break stratification, and test.  Then drain, charge, and test again.  From my understanding, this process will put the batteries at their best possible.  Does this sound correct?  Or is there a shorter/faster series of these steps such as water, equalize, top off, test?  I have little experience with deep cycle batteries so any suggestions are helpful!  Thanks in advance.

[thirteen]

If the cases are way out of shape then they may have be damaged due to freezing. I would try and cover the top plates with water and charge them separately then test each one. Since these are not for  full time usage for power you propbably be able to get by with them. Also depends on age of the batteries and abuse. If the question is money or time price a new one out then go from there. Best ok luck with them. Please charge in a vented area the gas can be dangerous.MtMnRoy

[Flux]

Lifting of the positive plates is common with batteries at the end of life. Low electrolyte and frost will not help. Unless they come for nothing then I wouldn't bother at best they will have a short life, at worst you will wast a lot of effort for no reward.

Some people make a hobby of wasting time on scrap batteries, fine it they get fun. I wast enough time nursing good ones.

Flux

[TheCasualTraveler]

     As one of those people who waste time on old batteries I have to say that Flux (and others here) give good advice. However I don't really think my time was wasted  because In my case I knew very little about flooded cell bats and have learned a a lot at the expense of old batteries, not good ones. Having just been thru what you are planning I would take the advice given me. Without wasting much time I would,

     Get the battery in out of the cold, clean it carefully keeping trash out of the fill holes, (discard any with damage to the case), fill with distilled water and put it on a charger capable of equalizing it, and let it sit, and wait, then check it after a day, two days, three? when it's up to about 14.5 to 15 volts with the charger attached, disconnect it and check SG values of the acid and check the voltage with a load. When my bats made it up to the middle of the SG scale and didn't go higher I put a load on them, a car headlight drawing 5 amps, and monitored it for 5 hours or so, then put the eq charger back on. After charging the second time the SG levels began to even out between cells (on the salvageable ones) The voltage tested at 12.6 to 12.8 and they could burn the headlight for hours without draining the battery significantly. I salvaged 2 small starting bats that test good and can easily start my truck. I got 3 large deep cycle bats that test in the high to medium range and the rest I will swap for another batch.

    I tried EDTA and it did seem to help the batteries to take a charge but it is not a wonder cure for sure. Nothing seems to beat a nice long steady EQ charge, especially if you draw down the battery a little afterwards and charge it again. Just my experience, best of luck.

[ghurd]

"Free"?  Might want to get the 4 that look the best.  With luck, 2 might be close to just about almost OK.

Either way, it will be nice to have them as trade-ins when you get new batteries.

G-

[spinningmagnets]

If one of the motors is a brushed Scott 3/4 HP, I'm interested in buying it.

[TheCasualTraveler]

whoops, I forgot you said 6 volts. adjust those charge voltages down...

[drjeseuss]

I assume you are referring to the buffer motors.  I'm unsure of them, but I'll find out what they are.  Currently, most of the units appear to be destined for the scrap yards.  I'm hoping to get some parts off first, including the motors.  I'll let you know what I find.

[dastardlydan]

Get all you can get, by all means.

If you go to buy new battery,

they want a $20.00 core charge

They are worth more as cores

than scrap.

The price of battery are going out of site, 23% up on Dec 24th

 this is the 3rd time this year.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[drjeseuss]

I looked up the motors for the units we have.  They don't sound like what you asked for, but maybe it'll be of interest to someone.  I'm struggling to find better info for them, but here's what I've got so far:

This is the parts manual:

http://www.floormachineparts.com/NilfiskAdvance/PDFs/Automatics/Whirlamatic%20UHSB20-%20UHSBD20-PL56
042243.pdf

Also I found a spec sheet that notes 2.5 HP 36v motors, and specifically notes drive motor as permanent magnet motor.  The large pad motor is OEM PN# 56389422 described as Motor TSB 672 and also has sub-parts listed for Carbon Brush Set and Brush Spring Set.  The drive motor is OEM PN# 56393607 and described only as drive motor.

  Let me know if you have any interest in any of this.

[g reif]

I have heard of reconditioning lead acid batteries, is this an option?

[drjeseuss]

I've heard of additives to "rejuvinate" though the masses seem mixed in response to these.  Almost sounds like snake oil.  I've thought of emptying the batteries, and restocking with fresh acid/water (I have access to properly dispose of spent acids).  The wall that remains is the sulfated plates.  I've heard mixed reaction of desulfation as well.  This approach seems most solid, but I'm unsure of the steps to take after replacing the fluids.  I know the plates "decay" somewhat and eventually are useless, growing less effective all the while.  What's the best approach to revive the sulfated plates?

[zap]

You might want to try the watgas circuit.  Here's a Google search of this site for instances of the watgas circuit. http://tinyurl.com/3xwvnk

And here's the actual circuit.  http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/556/watgas1.gif

Best of luck with the batteries.

[Jeff]

I'd be very interested in anyone's comments on the liquid de-sulphating products out there. Obviously some of them are just "snake oil", but from what little I know of chemistry, there does seem to be some solid evidence a good product would work. Being on a (extremely limited) budget, I'm anxious to know if a $10-$15 bottle of something would desulphate my fairly new batteries well enough to be a benefit, or I need to save for another 3-4 months to buy a $40-$50 electronic desulphator.

[drjeseuss]

From all the research I've done, my (untested) opinion is high for the PWM desulfator circuits I've seem.  They should be relatively easy to build, and seem to have a lot of backing for their effectiveness at keeping a good battery desulfated.  They also seem to be good at "reclaiming" a sulfated battery, though the time necessary to see results in rehabilitation are less than ideal.  If your batteries are newer it sounds like a good plan of action to extend their life.  The idea is that pulses of high current are sent through the batteries in a controlled manner which forces the sulfation to rejoin solution by means of resonant waves within the electrolyte.  The PWM desulfator would be set up to be used more or less constantly, though there is some amount of battery drain as a result.  My intended setup will activate the circuit only during charge cycles which should prove fine for low sulfation levels of a newer battery bank.  The only time it seems benefitial to run continuous is to reclaim a neglected battery.  Use caution with such a device installed, as the current pulses are potentially dangerous if mishandled.  Here's a few links to get you going (if you don't already know about this concept):

Various circuits using 555 timer ICs or Basic Stamp ICs:

http://home.comcast.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/lowpower.htm

They also have kit form available:

http://home.comcast.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/desulfparts.htm

And for the PicAxe crowd:

http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4026&highlight=desulfator&page=2

http://p198.ezboard.com/fleadacidbatterydesulfationfrm10