Author Topic: Battery Temperature Worries!  (Read 2329 times)

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Electron Pump

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Battery Temperature Worries!
« on: May 08, 2009, 12:15:13 AM »
  I live right out in the middle of Texas. And as you could imagine it gets hot here. I've read some posts lately talking about the different issues batteries endure at different temperatures. Heat is one that is worring me at this time.

  My main question, is it as damaging for the battery to sit at 105* at 75% charge as it is for it to sit at 105* at a 100% charge?

  When I'm seeing forcasts for these three digit temperatures do I need to allow the batteries to remain at a less than full charge. Or is it just as damaging at any level of charge?

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 12:15:13 AM by (unknown) »

dnix71

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 08:21:49 PM »
You can overcharge a hot battery if you don't lower the voltage. It's something like .022v/degree C over 20 C.


That works out to about .45 volts less at 105F. So you wouldn't want to keep the battery above 13.5 for an extended time. Yeah, heat kills batteries.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 08:21:49 PM by dnix71 »

scottsAI

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 08:47:45 PM »
Electron Pump,


Do not charge or discharge a HOT battery unless you HAVE to.

Charging/discharging makes it hotter, leave it as it is.

Long periods not good to leave discharged. (weeks)


Are you asking is it better before its hot to discharge or charge it?

Leave it charged.


What is the ground temperature in TX? (my chart shows 70F).

A battery in the cellar should be cooler than outside.

Fortunately H2 gas rises, should be safe in the ground.


Since your aware, while charging compensate battery temperature.


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 08:47:45 PM by scottsAI »

Madscientist267

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 10:57:41 PM »
Dude -


One word: VENTILATION


The overall reaction rates increase, evaporation rates increase, self discharge rates increase... This gets more dramatic the higher the temp gets, and it's not linear. Keep em cool any way you can.


Of course, with RE, you don't want to 'spend' a lot of power doing it either.


Shade them from the weather, but make sure they have a supply of fresh air for cooling at the very least. A wood shed comes to mind... It gets tricky to avoid ambient temperature issues, but trapped heat (from sun, charging/discharging) is an unnecessary evil that is easily avoided! :)


Steve

« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:57:41 PM by Madscientist267 »
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Electron Pump

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 06:21:25 AM »
  I thank all of you for your comments I know more about handeling the situation now. My batteries are inside in a shed but it is a metal building. The only idea I have for cooling them further is to move them under the house. It is peer and beam construction and I've got plenty of room. But there will be ventilation issues with that approach.

  I will keep a watch on usage during the hot part of the day.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:21:25 AM by Electron Pump »

Madscientist267

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2009, 07:36:53 AM »
It won't matter where you put them, you'll have some kind of issue to keep mind of. Heat and Hydrogen are the two biggest factors of course.


Outside is best safety wise, but you then have weather to contend with. Under a porch with an additional 'rain roof' over top of them would be best IMO. They stay dry, get plenty of free air for cooling, and can vent hydrogen until pigs fly, with no significant consequences.  


Under the house will probably provide the best cooling factor, but personally I don't like the idea of hydrogen potentially becoming trapped somewhere. Hydrogen molecules are tiny, and can seep their way through almost anything, but can pool easily too if the rate of production is high enough. I don't really trust the idea of even the best designed hydrogen ventilation hood either, unless there are absolutely no moving parts involved (such as fans).


Guess it depends on your level of paranoia... :) Me? I've personally seen what happens when even just the battery itself gets a bubble in it and decides equalize the forces of nature from within... not pretty. Definitely wouldn't want it happening on the larger scale inside my house!


Steve

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 07:36:53 AM by Madscientist267 »
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Electron Pump

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 08:35:22 AM »
  I agree. I think they are O.K. where they are at currently. I'm in no hurry to change things. Today we are supposed to see 103* and they are predicting 15 to 20 MPH winds. I can see some 5 amp spikes with 20 MPH winds. So we are talking in the ball park of 60 watts. Do you believe that would be to much charge for 103*

  I have a master divertion switch and for the heat of the day I can heat some light bulbs instead of batteries if you think that would be safer. The batteries are quite a bit away from full. The windmill is putting out just enough to bump the needle on the amp meter. Guessing from 6 to 20 watts and reading 12.71v.

  I'm planning on going to town today so I believe I'll let those bulbs warm a little through the day. And this evening I'll divert back to the windmill.

 

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 08:35:22 AM by Electron Pump »

Madscientist267

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 07:30:26 PM »
After proofreading this, I realized it has somewhat of a 'psychic fortuneteller' feel to it, in the sense that it doesn't directly answer your question, but here it is anyway...


12.71 is not exactly full (unless thats your standing voltage after several hours), but without an accurate SOC measurement, its difficult to tell. If you get decent wind at night, let it charge then. The closer to ~70 F the better, but everything isn't always ideal.


Wattage is subjective at this point, and without knowing the capacity of your bank, thats a difficult call to make. IMO however, you're probably just fine, based on the picture. 6-20W is probably safe for anything larger than 25AH at just about any temp. Even if every watt is converted to heat (such as is approached in overcharge), you'd be pressed to be able to detect the difference in the case temp. The idea behind not charging/discharging at elevated temps is to avoid as much damage as possible by not compounding the temp issue with internal power dissipation.


Honestly, it could be debated all the way from "dont move a single electron at that temp", to "don't worry about it". For example, Car batteries charge under some rough conditions, temp being one of them. Under the hood of a car is not exactly the coolest place in the vehicle, yet if charging is controlled properly, they can still last for years.


Nobody will ever debate that temp definitely affects lifespan, charge acceptance, self discharge rate, and power delivery capability. It's just a matter of trade off.


I remember reading something on here somewhere that said something to the effect of "the best way to treat a battery is to charge it occasionally just enough to ward off self discharge and prevent sulfation, and never discharge it."


It went on to say, "But what's the point?"


Know what I mean?


Steve

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 07:30:26 PM by Madscientist267 »
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

wooferhound

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2009, 03:35:26 AM »
I have seen a chart posted on the forum a few times that explained what max charging voltage is for High Temperatures. I looked for 15 minutes trying to find it but I couldn't. I did find these other helpful stories about charging hot batteries.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/4/23/155228/449

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/5/22419/7853

« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 03:35:26 AM by wooferhound »

Electron Pump

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2009, 06:20:26 AM »
  Thank you Steve, you have cleared things up for me. I understand quite a bit more about my batteries now.

  And hello Woof, good to hear from you. I'll get at reading over those posts. Yesturday we saw 103*. Today the high is supposed to be 83*. I tell ya, here you've gotta be prepared for every contingency. Last night we was in a tornado watch. Dont like the weather....Wait a minute or two!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 06:20:26 AM by Electron Pump »

wooferhound

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Re: Battery Temperature Worries!
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2009, 02:57:56 AM »
Here are some battery temperature charging Charts

http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

and down the page a little bit . . .

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 02:57:56 AM by wooferhound »