Author Topic: Admin needs Ram Pump help  (Read 6964 times)

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(unknown)

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Admin needs Ram Pump help
« on: June 21, 2005, 03:26:54 PM »
My first time installing a ram pump, helping a neighbor that's by the creek. The pump is a commercial unit from years back, with only the check valve and waste valve provided. Everything else is from 2" pvc.


We are following some online instructions for starting it -- cycling the waste valve by hand with the outlet plugged. It's working when we do this by hand-- building up good pressure this way on the outlet, but it won't cycle on its own. The waste valve drops down on its own, but won't lift -- it's trying to lift but can't quite make it up. It snaps up with good pressure and mostly seals when you lift it by hand to about halfway up.


The pump is supposed to be a 10:1 model. The supply pipe is 100 feet of 1" poly, the outlet is 3/4" poly. Head is about 4 feet, lift is about 40 feet.


I'm thinking the supply line is too long for the drop, and that maybe we should add a standpipe above the ram? We have to go 100' on the supply to get 4 feet of drop.


Anyone have any ideas to try? It's SO close to cycling on its own!


ADMIN

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 03:26:54 PM by (unknown) »

Tom in NH

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2005, 09:50:19 AM »
This is just a thought. Make sure there isn't any air in the intake line. If you have 100 feet of it and not a lot of drop, it's quite possible you're "air-locked."

--tom
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:50:19 AM by Tom in NH »

Gary D

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2005, 10:19:52 AM »
Hi guys, homepower had an article on ram pumps. It's in pdf format tho... perhaps you can get a slice of what you need from it. Gary D.

http://ncollier.com/rampumps.pdf
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 10:19:52 AM by Gary D »

Oso

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2005, 10:40:30 AM »
What is the diameter of the throat of the waste valve ?  It almost sounds like you are trying to run a 2 inch ram on a one inch supply line.


What type of adjustments are available on the waste valve? Does it have a stroke length adjustment ? Or is it just working against a spring or weights ?


Also, if you could provide a link to either the instructions or a picture of the ram, it might help.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 10:40:30 AM by Oso »

Flux

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 10:52:48 AM »
You don't say what type of beat valve it has, but your head is not that high.


Firstly reduce the stroke of the beat valve so that there is a greater velocity head across the seat, if this is still not enough, add a light spring to remove part of the weight of the valve until you get it working.


Your 100ft drive pipe is very long and will cause a fair amount of frictional loss so your water velocity may be too low to lift the valve.


If you want the thing to work properly get rid of the plastic drive pipe, the elastic losses in it will stop you from ever getting good results.


Feed your water nearly horizontally to within 20 ft of the ram with a wide bore plastic pipe to a small tank so that the head in the tank is the same as your supply.


Take a steel pipe from this tank about a foot below water level and run this straight to the ram. Make sure all drive pipe joints are perfectly water tight.


The polly pipe is ideal for the delivery.


Make sure the delivery valve seat is sealing, if it is an old valve it may leak back.


You don't say anything about valve sizes or water supply available so I can't advise on the best size of drive pipe.


Try reducing the stroke and adding a bit of a spring to get it running then you can see if the present drive pipe is anywhere near the right size. Don't expect much performance at 40 ft lift with that plastic drive pipe but it should keep running.


Flux

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 10:52:48 AM by Flux »

jimovonz

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2005, 02:09:39 PM »
I have made three ram pumps of varying size in the last 6 months and have been very surprised at how simple and effective they are. I'm sure that there would be a lot more in use if folk were awear of this. I use standard brass plumbing parts and each pump costs me around $US150 including the galv steel drive pipe. It sounds to me lik e your pump is designed to flow more water than it is being delivered. The flow through the pump is not enough to lift/shut the valve. If your supply can handle it, increase the diameter of your drive pipe and use galv steel. The ideal length of your drive pipe depends on many factors. The length effects the pulse time and efficiency but there is a large range over which it will work just fine. All of my drive pipes are over 100'. At the end of my drive pipes I use a vented stand pipe to dissiapate the return pulse and keep the pulse time reasonable. If your valve has a spring or any obvious added weight to keep it open/adjust the pulse time, you could try removing it. I've added weight to one of my valves to keep it open longer and optimise the flow. In your case you need the valve to be as light as possible to assist it to close. My pumps have valves that would 'fall' closed if they are tipped upside down. I can vary the pulse rate to some degree by rotating the pump body so that gravity is acting less against the raising of the valve. The only problem I have run into when installing one of my pumps is a lack of 'sucking' action to open the valve after a pulse. I put this down to a delivery hieght that is too low. There is obviously a minimum height to which you have to deliver water so that there is enough back pressure to cause a sufficient reflective pulse to suck the valve back open. I got around this problem by adding a valve to restrict the outlet of the pump.

I sure there is a solution to your problem out there somewhere!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 02:09:39 PM by jimovonz »

antw

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 04:00:13 PM »
Any pictures available of your pumps?  If they are made from standard parts then others may want to duplicate it :-)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 04:00:13 PM by antw »

jimovonz

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2005, 03:23:19 AM »
I've been meaning to post about my pumps (ram + turbine) for a while but never seem to quite get around to it... The pumps are on a block of land that we are subdividing into 'lifestyle' blocks and should provide all of the water to these lots. Unfortunately we have been having very heavy rain for the last month and access to two of the pumps is restricted to very steep/slippery foot access. However the first pump I made is near the front of the block and I took some pics on my way home this evening. This pump has a 1 1/2" drive pipe approx 110ft long with a 10ft head. The spring feeding the pump flows approx 15,000 gal/day. This pump delivers approx 400 gal/day to a height of 160ft. This is physically the largest of the three ram pumps but pumps the least as it has the lowest drive head and highest delivery lift. The over flow/bypass from this pump is captured and delivered to a 2500gal tank in the ground next to it for use with an electrical backup pump. The tall white PVC pipe is the expansion tank and contains a partially inflated wheel barrow wheel inner tube. This tank helps even out the pressure spikes caused by the ram. I did not use this type of tank for the next two pumps but rather used a simple piece of flexable rubber tube with hose clamps inline with the delivery pipe. This seems to do the the job just fine and is a lot more cost effective (high pressure PVC fittings are expensive + you can do without an additional 'T'). The pump itself simply consists of a T with two spring check valves attached. One of the check valves is faced in the reverse direction with the spring removed to act as the 'clack' valve while the other ensures the flow goes in the appropriate direction.

Sorry about the spatter all over the pump - that's my attempt at hydro seeding.

In the near future I will take some better pics and post a better description










« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 03:23:19 AM by jimovonz »

ADMIN

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2005, 09:52:00 AM »
We love this board and the folks on it! Thanks for all the advice.

I'm pretty sure we got all the air out of the supply line. But water velocity and flow rate does seems low, probably from friction in a too-long and too-small diameter pipe.

My neighbor is indeed feeding a 2 inch ram with 1 inch poly pipe. I can now see some of the inherent problems with this, thanks to folks on the board here.


We are going to try a light spring on the waste valve to see if it will cycle. Plus my neighbor didn't install valves on the inflow and outflow....looks like an outflow valve is needed for sure to get it cycling (I tried to tell him that....but he's a very frugal Scot ;~)


We are going to visit the local surplus building materials shop and try to dig up some cheap 2 inch (or maybe 1.5 inch) METAL pipe and give that a try on the supply side.


No pics yet -- but once we get it working I'll write a whole page on it, with details and photos.


Thanks again for the help -- I still bet we'll have this working by the end of the week.


ADMIN

(danf)

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:52:00 AM by ADMIN »

Oso

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2005, 11:15:01 AM »
I would not waste the time trying the spring to get it to cycle. Even if you get it to cycle, you will not get the water to pump 40 feet.


You need to change the drive pipe.

With only 4 feet of head and a pvc ram, I would not worry about the metal drive pipe. Poly or PVC will work just as well. Since price may influence the decision, I would rather see a full 2 inch plastic pipe, rather than a 1 and 1/2 inch metal.


You need not worry about a stand pipe or drive tank in these bigger pipe sizes, you are within the 1000 times the ID length limit.


You should also change out the delivery pipe. You can re-use the old 1 inch poly as your new delivery pipe.


You do not need inlet or outlet valves. An inlet valve is nice to have (especially when working on the ram), but not necessary. If you do use one, it should be a full two inch opening, even if you have to transition up to a 2 and 1/2 or 3 inch to get it. With only 4 feet of head, you want to eliminate all choke points.

Outlet valves are not required to get the ram functioning. They are most useful for keeping the delivery pipe full of water while you work on the ram, avoiding the delay of having to pump the line full before water starts flowing.

With the right size drive pipe, you will probably only have to cycle the impulse valve once or twice by hand, before you have sufficient back pressure in the delivery pipe/air chamber for the ram to function.


Good luck with it.


 

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 11:15:01 AM by Oso »

antw

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 02:57:43 PM »
Thanks for the pics.  It looks like anyone could build one (even me!).  Did you calculate the size of pipes etc, or was it trial and error to get it working?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 02:57:43 PM by antw »

Oso

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 03:13:15 PM »
Jimovonz


In re-reading your post I noticed the comment that your other two rams do not have Air Chambers.  The purpose of the air chamber is not to "even out the pressure spike", although it does do that as well.


The real purpose of the air chamber is to accept as much water as possible through the delivery valve in the very short time that the impulse valve is closed. When the impulse valve opens, the air chamber continues to push water up the delivery pipe.


By not having air chambers, you are "clipping off" the quantity of water that could be delivered.


If you are happy with the quantity of water that you are getting, there is no need to do anything.  However, adding air chambers will substantialy increase the amount of water delivered.  At lower delivery heads, the air chamber will double the delivery water. At the higher delivery heads, the gain may only be in the 25-33 percent range. However, I believe that more than justifies the cost.


You are actually in a great position to test your gain, simply by borrowing the air chamber off of this pump and transfering it to one of the others, just to measure what the increase would be.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 03:13:15 PM by Oso »

jimovonz

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2005, 04:05:28 PM »
Hi Oso,

Thanks for your comments. I understand the importance of the air chamber, and I'm sure that the air chamber I made for the above ram is the most efficient. However the other two rams are not without an 'elastic expansion region' that performs this task. Rather than go to the trouble and expense that I did with the PVC expansion tank, the other two pumps feed directly into a 2" flexable heavy rubber tube approx 4ft long. The delivery pipe is attached to the end of this tube. This tube 'pulses' with the pump. Initially I made the above chamber from standard low pressure PVC and included a screw on lid to allow inspection of the bladder. This exploded within about 15 minutes of starting the RAM. The high pressure PVC that this tank is made from cost me around $70 in parts and is permanently sealed. I had to add a stainless mesh to the bottom of the chamber to stop the bladder from being sucked back out the bottom when the down stream pressure was released. The rubber hose + clamps I used for the other two pumps cost around $10 and perform very well. I have measured the efficiency of the pumps and I'm getting better than 50% for all of them. I did attach the delivery pipe directly to one of the 'rubber hose' pumps with out the rubber hose - the pulses were very harsh and split the delivery pipe at the connection after about a day.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 04:05:28 PM by jimovonz »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2005, 04:08:48 PM »
I like the design.

The pressurization solutions (rubber bladder in container and rubber pipe section) eliminate the need for a snifter hole to mintain the bubble in the tank.  Therefore you can use stock (or slightly modified) valves rather than fabricating something.


Assemble a handfull of plumbing parts and it just works.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 04:08:48 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

jimovonz

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2005, 04:15:57 PM »
Hi Antw

I did do some calcs for the size of the 'clack' valve. Using the volume and head of the water source I estimated the size the valve throat needed to be to flow this water. I increased this by 1/3 to allow for the time that the water was not actually flowing due to the valve closing (guestimate) and chose the valve closest to this. In the above ram the clack valve is 32mm (1 1/4") For the drive pipe I chose the pipe a size up from the valve which is 40mm (1 1/2"). The pipe size downstream of the clack valve can be reduced as the flow is much less (most the water exits the clack valve). The delivery pipe for this ram is 20mm (3/4") but could be even smaller as the flow is small due to the high delivery height ~ 16:1 drive:delivery ratio.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 04:15:57 PM by jimovonz »

jimovonz

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2005, 04:22:17 PM »
I much prefered these options when researching the design. Too many folk complain of 'water logging' of the expansion tank when using a sniffer hole to introduce a portion of air with each pulse. The rubber tube option is by far the cheaper/easier to implement (and I feel performs almost as good if not the same as the bladder)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 04:22:17 PM by jimovonz »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2005, 05:40:15 PM »
FYI you can get pressure tanks with built-in bladders (inflate to desired pressure with tire pump) in a number of sizes, some very tiny.


Goulds Pumps has some in sizes down to a couple quarts or so for use with their constant-pressure well pump controllers.


Trailer/RV supplies have tiny ones - like pint size - intended for smoothing out the cycling of pressure pumps feeding plumbing from onboard storage tanks.  (For instance:  SHURflo, 8.9" x 4.06" x 3.6, 125 PSI nylon housing, for $39.99 at Camping world.)


It's hard to beat $10 for a hunk of hose and a couple clamps.  But a tank has the advantage that it won't be flexing the delivery plumbing as it expands and contracts.  Also the pressure is taken by the air rather than the springyness of the rubber, which should make for longer life.


As for waterlogging, I understand that happens when the snifter hole clogs with crud from the water.  You cure that by bending a little wire into a cotter-pin shape and installing it losely in the hole.  The varying water flow constantly wiggles it around and keeps the hole clear.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:40:15 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Nando

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2005, 10:42:17 PM »
ADMIN:


The Ram Pump seems that it has the valve too heavy loaded, START MAKING IT COMPLETELY light loaded and slight increase it until you reach the desired operating point.


To test it and to optimize it it is best to have a 55 gallons tank up about 4 to 6 feet with a short pipe length feeding the R.P.

This way you will be able to adjust knowing what you have pressure wise.


Take the pressure from the bottom of the 55 gallon and feed it from the top.


In some places we had to have such arrangement for the system to work ( like 200 feet for 8 to 10 feet head )


The Ram Pump will take the whole pipe length to operate and depending on the weight of the valve it may not operate properly.


Another way is to use a short pipe (20 feet) with a T and a pipe up ( StandPipe) to limit the R.P height cycle -- though you need to be careful and know what to do for it to work properly since the up and open end pipe is a relaxer to stop Strong R.P effects.

In some cases the up pipe had a regulating hole (it was a valve to adjust the size) to vary the desired effects.


My cousin was the expert and I, at that time, did not pay much attention to the jobs he was selling and installing with his employees.


Regards


Nando

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 10:42:17 PM by Nando »

ghurd

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 02:44:40 PM »
How is this working out?

G-
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 02:44:40 PM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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Re: Admin needs Ram Pump help
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2005, 02:45:02 PM »
How is this working out?

G-
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 02:45:02 PM by ghurd »
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