Author Topic: solar domestic water from roof heat  (Read 20977 times)

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Kwazai

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2005, 06:17:32 AM »
for the most part- the more venting the better. most of the recent studies point out the problems associated with unvented attic and crawl spaces. this one is pretty good- including calcs.


http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/pubs/techsupport_cec/


this one points out the benefit- though marginal of sealing the crawl space, I have run across some for unvented attics also, but nothing this definitive. most of this stuff boils down to a cost equation- not a question of whether you can make your roof heat your house- but how expensive (either shingle life or initial cost of pieces to actually do it).


http://www.advancedenergy.org/buildings/knowledge_library/crawl_spaces/pdfs/Double%20Duty.pdf


L8r

Mike

« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 06:17:32 AM by Kwazai »

Don Cackleberrycreations

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2005, 10:27:05 AM »
I have been an upper level water proofing technician for  over 20 years some call those who do this work a roofer. However because to be  roofer in this area normally means you must have a criminal record/ drug habit or be an alcoholic I am not qualified to be a "roofer" hense the upper level water proofing tech.

The biggest enemy of an asphlat based shingle (this includes fiberglass) is heat.

I have a design for a interlocking uv stablized  solar collector/ roofing material that looks much like a shake roof . It requires a heat exchanger as the fluid in the panels is a light oil to prevent the freezing problems of water. expansion and contraction are the big problems with such a retro fit system.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 10:27:05 AM by Don Cackleberrycreations »

GaryGary

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2005, 07:35:13 PM »
Hi,


So, are you going to tell us about your new design??


Gary

www.BuildItSolar.com

« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 07:35:13 PM by GaryGary »

Kwazai

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2005, 06:29:49 AM »
do you have a link or more info?

I will have to (at the very least) add a layer of shingles within a coupla years...

Mike
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 06:29:49 AM by Kwazai »

Don Cackleberrycreations

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2005, 08:30:45 AM »
   The idea honestly came after laying an imitation shake metal roof .

This type of roof uses  interlocking pressed steel panels that look like wood shake shingles.

   The first very simple attempt invovled running a pair of copper pipes 3/8" under the highest void under the shingles. (very little thermal mass) still the temp in the copper pipe rose quite qickly into the 110-120 range but a stiff breeze or cloud would cause the temp to drop just as quickly.

 Better results were found using an imitation shake made from recycled tires .

These I had to Route groves to place the pipes in but the thermal mass of the rubber provided a much more stable source of heat. These were installed over 3/4" foil faced polyurathane foam insulation. This works much like radiant floor heating in reverse.

I am sure these methods are nothing new or exciting, they were simple tests .

    The main problem I am having with the interlocking design is sealing the connections between shingles.The O ring life span is a concern with the drastic tempature changes. There is also a bit of trouble with delamination when pressure in the  internal passages reaches 20psi or above.This is more of a durablity issue after all noone wants a roof to leak.

    I have a copy write in place and hope to get a patent

hopefully you can understand why I would be a little vague on the design details
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 08:30:45 AM by Don Cackleberrycreations »

GaryGary

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2005, 10:18:14 PM »
Hi,

Generally, solar collectors work better if they don't have much thermal mass.  The best ones have a surface that absorbs well, and a means to transfer the heat out at a rapid enough rate to keep the collector from getting too hot (because collectors that run hotter than they need to lose too much heat to the outside air).  Lots of thermal mass in a collector just makes it slow to heat up -- this is especially true if the collector has cold soaked all night at low temperatures.  


You mention that the collector does not produce much heating when the wind is blowing.  I thinnk this is because there is no glazing to reduce the rate of heat loss from the collector to the air.  When the air is still, an air film with an R value of about 0.7 forms next to the absorber, and reduces the heat transfer rate from the absorber to the air.  But, when a breeze is blowing, the R value of the air film drops to about 0.1, and the heat transfer from the absorber to the outside air is much faster.  I don't think that more thermal mass will help you on this.  What would help a lot is incorporating a glazing layer in the shingle design with a small airspace between the shingle absorber surface and the glazing.  This would raise the R value from the absorber to the outside to something around 1, and reduce heat losses to the outside air a lot.  Maybe a layer of polycarbonate (Lexan) could be incorporated in the shingle design?


You might try a google for "Dawn Solar" -- they promote a system that runs collector pipe under a metal roof -- it also has no glazing layer.  While this is a pretty simple system, and looks just like a regular roof from the street, its efficiency is awful becuase it has no glazing layer to reduce heat loss from the roof panels.


Gary

« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 10:18:14 PM by GaryGary »

Don Cackleberrycreations

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2005, 07:54:04 AM »
The object is to make a roofing material that is its self a collector.

Allowing for use in the most anal retentive neighborhoods. Pleasing to the eye.

Its a simple matter to run coils under a metal roof planel held on firring strip risers.

   One reason an asphalt shingle roof gets so hot and stays hot is because it has thermal mass. From 240-900 pounds per square, Metal roofs have much less mass and cool off very quickly. in all truth the water in a collector is themal mass.

Build a simple hot air thermo syphon collector one using glazing over a black metal collecting surface measure its total BTU out put in a 24 hour period. Then build basicly the same collector using a black concrete heat sink and measure the total BTU out put. while its true the collector with the concrete will take  an extra hour to fully heat up its out put will be more constant. IME

   Efficiency on a total roofing collector would be lower than a glazed collector.However considering that not many glazed collectors on private homes get into the 2-3000 sqft range the total usable BTUs produced would be more than those produced by a 500sqft glazed collector.

Glazing a roof is an expensive and unpractical idea (at least in this area Hial ect).

   The object being to produce a simple effective system requiring very little maintainence for the common man. Many would like to lower heating bills and conserve energy but few are willing to change their life style to have it. My goal is to produce a system that will be simple and have a 20+ year life span not only keeping a home dry buy also producing usable heat.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 07:54:04 AM by Don Cackleberrycreations »

angiebuds

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2010, 03:11:18 PM »
Actually, your roof heat can heat up your water supply that you are collecting from your roof. The temperature of the water will rise as the roofing material is higher in temperature. IN summer your water could at least reach up to 150 to 200.

MattM

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2010, 06:39:03 PM »
The only practical roof heat collector is used on commercial buildings; pex tubing snaked under standing seam metal roofs.  Wood battens are laid down about every foot, with insulation above and below the pex channels.  Looks pretty easy to do, but I've never done one.  I'd be fearful if anything spring a leak, it's not practical to repair. 

tomtank

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2010, 07:03:22 PM »
As Gary said in an earlier post, any collector that uses metal roofing without glazing is embarrassingly horrible. You would be better served to install an unglazed swimming pool collector. Covering thousands of square feet does not do much if the collector is a thermal nightmare.

A cheap scheme that would work equal if not a lot better is to install a fancoil in the attic that uses a small fan to vent the hot attic air through it.
There was a commercial version available at some point in the past that was way too expensive. It can be a very simple DIY system that does not require a metal roof to work.

MattM

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2010, 07:26:09 PM »
If metal has to be glazed then you could realistically do it inexpensively by using flat stock over your pex tubing, not unlike building a solar box.  Whether you have a gabled or hip roof, I don't see it being difficult to do.  Think of the glazing as your roofing!  And if you laid down insulation before you laid down the pex (and it's channeled insulation) your roof wouldn't get very warm behind the collector.  Look under craigslist for recycled commercial insulation at around $600 per pallet.  You normally get 45-50 sheets in 4x8 sheets at R9 to R11, or 30-35 sheets of 4x4 sheets in R12 to R15.    
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 07:36:55 PM by MattM »

Kwazai

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Re: solar domestic water from roof heat
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2010, 06:52:23 AM »
............................
A cheap scheme that would work equal if not a lot better is to install a fancoil in the attic that uses a small fan to vent the hot attic air through it.
There was a commercial version available at some point in the past that was way too expensive. It can be a very simple DIY system that does not require a metal roof to work.

I thought along these lines too- one 28F day I checked the temp under a shingled wood roof- almost the first inch was very warm (to the touch) air- osb decking material was warm to the touch(warm enough to supplement a gas pack system). did some research and attic temps get higher than 140F in the heat of the summer (NC)-not sure about winter. The air/collector scheme would work in NC, probably not in Colorado...
seems like it would work very well as a supplemental system- just feed it in to the return on the hvac by selctively turning on and off a fan/coil arrangement- not sure I'd want the osb off-gas involved- better as a water/coil arrangement I'd think. If the temp were warm enough and heat was needed- then heat hot incoming air, else use std hvac-, could probably do same with cool air from crawl space for AC side. series of temperature switches in an and/or logic arrangement to run fan relays and pump relays (simpler the better).
just my .02$

Mike