Author Topic: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel  (Read 4517 times)

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Paulm

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Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« on: February 16, 2006, 01:44:22 PM »
I'm about to buy a storage tank for my hot water solar system. I can get a 45 gallon stainless steel tank for $800 with built in heatexchanger coil or go with a standard glass lined hot water heater for half the price but then I need an external heat exchanger. I'm running antifreeze so I'll need the exchanger. The stainless tanks come with a life time warranty, the standard tanks come with a 6 to 10 year warranty depending on brand. Do you think it's well worth the extra cost for stainless? Because of this higher price I can only afford 45 gallons of storage. I'd like the 60 gal but it's $1200. I hope 45 gallons will do for the 2 people in the house. I have six 3x8 panels I could use, that's more than enough for a 45 gallon tank. I may have to cover a couple in the summer.

 What's your experience with storage tank size v.s. panel square footage?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 01:44:22 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2006, 08:59:41 AM »
There are other solutions:


Used Stainless steel 55 gallon barrels are common, I do not know the price now.

buy 6 inch styrofoam for insulation.


You could make the heat exchanger with concentric pipe construction, or placing coiled copper tubing in the tank.


Nando

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 08:59:41 AM by Nando »

JW

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2006, 09:49:00 AM »
Just a heads up Paulm,


 this months issue(feb06)Popular Machanics has an excellent article on what your doing. There are some really nice drawings of several different types of solar water heater systems. You should take a look. it starts on page 81 and goes on for a couple of pages, the home journal article. The cutaway views of the storage tank and what Nando is saying made me remember it.


JW

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 09:49:00 AM by JW »

GaryGary

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2006, 10:36:37 AM »


Hi Paul,


Six 3X8 panels gives you 144 sqft of collector -- thats a lot of collector area for hot water for a family of 2, and a lot of area for a 45 gallon tank.  You will have excess hot water that might be used for heating the house?


Hot water usage is usually figured at 15 to 20 gallons per person per day, but, of course, it varies a lot with lifestyle.


I have a lot of information on solar water and space heaters here:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/water_heating.htm

The Home Power "Basics" articles are very good, and are free downloads.  

and

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/Space_Heating.htm

(down the page a ways under "active"


Is the heat exchanger in the stainless tank double wall?  It should be for your case.

And, I'm sure you already know that you should use the non-poisonous antifreeze.


There is some heat exchanger info here:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/water_heating.htm#Components

The "Quad Rod" seems to be pretty popular.


I think that I would think about this somemore, and try to make better use of the fairly large collector area you have.


Gary

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 10:36:37 AM by GaryGary »

Paulm

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2006, 10:39:47 AM »
I accutally do have a 150gal cleaned out furnace oil tank I've been using with a homemade outside wood furnace which is a pain because you have to light a fire every second day in the winter. So, I'm going solar. But my tank has alot of scum on the top and my heatexchanger copper coil is black and green and ugly. This set up is only 6 months old, kind of a trial before I do the solar thing. So any suggestions on reducing corrosion algee or what ever? (Yes, I will pick up the latest Pop mech. magazine,thanks)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 10:39:47 AM by Paulm »

Paulm

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2006, 11:04:00 AM »
(Paul again)

I do have infloor heating in my basement slab. The excess heat after the tank is at top temp the heat transfer fluid can be redirected to the floor, somehow. My old steel furnace oil tank is BIG. It has about 150gal in it. It maybe ok but I want this system to be reliable and the mildew/corrosion kinda turned me off. That's why I was thinking of the nice stainless tank with the exchanger built in.

Thanks for everything anyone has to contribute to my project.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 11:04:00 AM by Paulm »

GaryGary

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2006, 10:27:11 PM »
Hi Paul,


Well, here is something to think about -- it may or may not work for your situation.


Build a fairly large storage tank as follows:

Sides, top and bottom made with plywood or MDO plywood, and stiffened with 2X4's turned edgewise, and which lap over each other at the corners for a strong shear joint.  Tank is lined with 1 or 2 layers of 2 inch polyiso insulation, which is in turn lined with an EPDM liner.   The top of tank should be removeable to install heat exchangers etc.   The EPDM is made for pond and tank linings, and is good up to 180F, and has a long life. Its about $1 per sqft, and can be found at places that sell pond supplies.  The storage tank could be filled with plain water, which is just used to store heat -- it could have something it to prevent growth, but should not be anything poisonous to people.  I think that this kind of tank can be built up to several hundred gallons, and should be fairly inexpensive.

As a 2nd thought, maybe the insulation should be fit over the outside of the plywood, in which case you could use the extruded polystyrene (the pink stuff).  You might even be able to work out a way to just use fiberglass batts on the side with rigid underneath.


Three circulation loops come into the storage tank:


Loop 1: goes to the solar collectors and uses antifreeze.  The heat from this loop is transferred to the tank by a heat exchanger that is a coil of copper pipe immersed in the storage tank.


Loop 2: goes to your hot water heater and circulates water directly from the hot water tank when the storage tank temperature is hotter than the water at the bottom of your hot water tank.  Again, the heat exchanger is just a coil of copper pipe immersed in the storage tank.  

Through a part of the year, the hot water tank elements could be turned off.  I believe that the double wall heat exchanger requirement is met by this arrangement, in that there are two copper pipe walls between your potable water and the antifreeze in the solar loop (which should still be non-toxic).  You would be able to detect a leak in either because the storage tank overflow would start flowing.


Loop 3: goes to your floor heating circuit and circulates water or antifreeze depending on the design of the floor heating system.  It might even be possible to just circulate the water directly from the storage tank to the floor system without a heat exchanger if the floor system components can stand some oxygen in the water.


So, this amounts to 2 or 3 pumps, 2 or 3 coils of copper for heat exchangers, and some plywood, insulation, EPDM for the tank, and probably two controllers.  Maybe not too expensive or complex?

The pumps could probably the Taco or Grundfos pumps that are commonly used in radiant floor heat systems (you may have one now for your floor system) -- these are fairly cheap, and can be found on ebay sometimes.


In the winter, I would think about whether you want to let the tank get up to maximum temperature before using water in the floor loop.  The cooler the water circulating through the collectors, the more efficient they are and the more heat they will collect.  If you read the part of this page about collector efficiency, it might clarify this:

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Measurements/CollectorPerformance.htm


If this is getting to be more than you wanted to get into, then I would just go ahead and do your original hot water plan.  Maybe with less than all six collectors.  Its better to be actually getting hot water from solar than be thinking about a system that might do both hot water and floor heating :-)


Gary


PS -- size of the storage tank -- this is based on making the tank large enough to store the collected heat for one full sunny day:

Not sure where you live, but 140 sqft of panels operating at 50% efficiency on a sunny winter day at 40 deg latitude would produce about:


Heat out = (140ft^2)(1600 BTU/ft^2)(0.5 efic) = 112,000 BTU


The idea here is that each sqft of collector gets about 1600 BTU/day of sun on a sunny winter day at 40 deg latitude.


if you say the tank should store this 112K BTU of heat when the tank temperature goes from 90F up to 150F, then the number of gallons would be:


  Tank Size = (112,000 BTU)/((150F-90F)(1 BTU/lb-F))

            = 1870 lb  or 230 gallons or 30.7 cubic ft


    If the tank was a cube, it would be 38 inches on a side (not counting thickness of plywood and insulation)


You might want to make it a somewhat larger than this, but probably not smaller.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 10:27:11 PM by GaryGary »

scottsAI

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Re: Solar storage tank ,Stainless v.s. Steel
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2006, 12:27:08 AM »
Hello Paulm,


When buying tanks they get expensive!


So, buck the system and go buy an electric hot water heater.

Use the heaters for a load dump if you have wind or hydro.

Or the heaters are an expensive backup system of heat.


Last I looked (couple years) 80gal ele. HW was $250 with warranty.

I run across used ones in the paper for free, come pick it up.

People buy electric, then change to gas after a year or two.

At this price get two!


I prefer the drain back systems. Without heat exchanger.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 12:27:08 AM by scottsAI »