Author Topic: Asking for help on water problem  (Read 7711 times)

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Murlin

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Asking for help on water problem
« on: May 22, 2006, 06:29:35 PM »
I have been trying to figure out the best way to get water from 1000 foot deep without electricity.


It seems that it is going to take at least 5 HP to pump the water from the well to the storage tank.


Has anyone here had any experience with a problem like this?


I would like to do i with solar but it takes alot of power.  


The only other way I can think of is to do a drive shaft off of a wind mill and use mechanical force to push the pump.


The pump does not have to run all the time, just enough to keep up with consumption.


Does anyone have any Ideas?  They would be much appreciated.


Thanks for your time...


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 06:29:35 PM by (unknown) »

DaveW

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2006, 01:32:48 PM »
One sure way I know of would be the Aermotor 16 wind mill.  I know it will do over 900 ft.  About $10,000 for pump and tower, plus an extra 1,000 for the deep well cylinder and sinker bars.  A little on the steep side for price, but with a little maintenance every year will last for decades.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 01:32:48 PM by DaveW »

wdyasq

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2006, 02:01:32 PM »
I don't know where this 1000 foot well is but you might think about a water catchment system. There are some homes that reuse the bath water as toilet water and other conservation measures to additionally cut down on water needs.


An inch of rain on 1 square foot of collection area will yield .6 gallons of water.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 02:01:32 PM by wdyasq »
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Murlin

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2006, 02:51:03 PM »
Thanks Dave, I have done alot of searches and havent found anything that would would do over a 600 ft head yet. I will do a search on that one also :)


Ron, I live in Texas.  We have to drill to about 900/1100 feet to hit the sand that holds the good water.  


Last year it didn't rain for 8 months in my area, might as well live in the desert...lol...


Water in a 2" pipe gets real heavy at 1000 feet :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 02:51:03 PM by Murlin »

jimpep

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2006, 02:56:17 PM »
You are saying that the static level of the water is 1000 ft from the surface ? For instance : My well is 550 feet deep but the water comes up to ground level ~8 gallons per minute. In fact over flows part of the year. The static line was 40 feet deeper and only 1/2 gallon a minute before hydro-fracting. I'm not sure what kind of head pressure you would have to overcome to bring it up 1000 feet. Look at some pump cut sheets and they should tell you what head pressure they can pump at.


Jim

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 02:56:17 PM by jimpep »

wdyasq

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Texas
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2006, 03:13:24 PM »
I live in Texas also. It didn't rain for the same 8 months here. I am on city water and use ~900 gallons a month. The well depth here is ~400'. I wish I wasn't required to be hooked to city water. I have ~3500 SF of roof I could collect and store.


It also didn't rain the whole 8 months where my brother has a house and there are NO wells to a depth of over 5000 feet.  He is on a catchment system with ~8,000 gallons of water storage.  His catchment area is about 8,000 SF. He never ran low on water but got worried last winter.


My mother lives just south of Fort Worth.  The "1st Trinity" sands there are ~1300 SF.  She is on city water.  


I have a friend who lives 15 miles East of here.  His well is 40' deep with water standing at 14'.


All of these places are within 40 miles driving distance of my place.  I could have kept my normal water consumption with 3-1500 gallon tanks. If I had to, I'll bet I could lower my water consumption by half and not effect my life style in any appreciable way.  These tanks would cost me $650 each. I could pay for one each year for my minimum city services bill. I would probably only have 3000 gallons storage and only need to cut water usage once every 20 years.


The decisions are all yours.  But, don't get stuck on using that hole just because it is there.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 03:13:24 PM by wdyasq »
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scottsAI

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2006, 07:35:35 PM »
Helllo Murlin,


Looked for deep well,

http://www.allproducts.com/ee/wellpump/01-stainless_steel_submersible_pump.html


sp-0539 2 hp 39 stage pump looks like it should work.

326m = zero flow to 16.7 lpm at 254m. Your at 305m maybe 10 l.pm (like 2-3gmp?)

You will want a big tank!


Several manufactures make deep well pumps. The above was just the first one I found.


This installation will cost a fortune. The catchment system sounds like an interesting idea.

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 07:35:35 PM by scottsAI »

Murlin

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Re: Texas
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2006, 07:42:10 PM »
I have a surface well in the Woodbine@ 110 feet that puts out 25 gal a min but it is undrinkable and I only use it for irrigation.  The man who dug my surface well said that Trinity was about 950 feet down.


I hit another 8 gal a min about 35 ft down and took it all since it was just for watering the garden and lawn.  I think the shallow water was what made the water undrinkable.


A man up the road bout a quarter mile has a shallow well at 14 ft.


But the water table keeps dropping.


The Trinity sand has some good water that is drinkable right out of the ground.


I am going to use my solid modeler and compute the head pressure @ 1000 feet on 2" pipe and try to build a windmill/pumping rig.


We are also going to recycle grey/rain water and run it through a sand filter for conservation.


I am hoping to supply drinking water for 3 homes with water from the deep well.


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 07:42:10 PM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2006, 07:54:40 PM »
In my origonal post I said drive shaft, but meant to say sucker rod system like the areomotor uses.


All those deep pumps require about 4000 watts and I was trying to do it without electricity.


I am not too concerned with pumping massive amounts of water, 150 gal/hr is plenty to steadily fill the tanks.


I heard about a real simple type pump someone designed in Africa but I cant find the link yet.


One Idea I came up with just while ago was to have a simple plunger pulled up by a Stainless steel wire and pull the water past a one way valve  a couple foot at a time.


Dunno if that would work or not.  I havent seen how the pumps in the old windmills are made.


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 07:54:40 PM by Murlin »

wdyasq

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Re: Texas
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2006, 08:55:27 PM »
Murin,


I had hoped to locate your area by overlaying the Woodbine and Trinity Aquifers. The Woodbine extends North from McLenan to the Red River and then East to Arkansas line. The Trinity goes from Uvalde County, up through the center of Texas, North to the Red River and East ... to the Arkansas border.


So, I have you located to an area only 200 miles "tall" and about the same "wide".


http://tinyurl.com/gbvtf - Trinity sands PDF report


http://tinyurl.com/gbvtf - Woodbine - PDF


http://tinyurl.com/gbvtf - Major and Minor Aquifers of Texas


After Reading a bit... "Trinity water table dropping 550 feet" or soemthing similar I would be reluctant to invest in a hole like that.


"Water Pumper" windmills have positive displacement cylinder pumps connected with a sucker rod running inside the "stand pipe".  Pulling a 1000 foot well is not something I would like to participate in on a regular basis ORr, pay for.


BTW - I'm in Western Hood County.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 08:55:27 PM by wdyasq »
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scottsAI

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2006, 10:49:57 PM »
Yes, I know... but sometimes you have to do things a different way!

I have not found a mechanical only pump that works down to 300m.

I was rather surprised. Found 150m... not going to make it.


2Hp is 1500w + conversion, lots better than 4000w.


What are you going to use for the mechanical input?

Assuming you find a pump?

Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 10:49:57 PM by scottsAI »

Nando

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2006, 11:32:34 PM »
1000 feet = 304.8 meters deep.


The Basic energy to raise that column is 304.8 * 9.81 = 2990 watts per liter/sec, then one needs to take in consideration the efficiencies of the system in addition the added power to be able too obtain stable flow.


Motor efficiency 0.85

Pump efficiency 0.7

Pipe losses 0.05


So [2990 / ( 0.85 * 0.7)]*1.05 = 5.276 Kilowatts or 7 H.P.


8.5 to 10 HP may be the better motor for longer life since you may be driving several stages pump.


What is the diameter of the well pipe ?.


Nando

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 11:32:34 PM by Nando »

mikemotorbike

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2006, 01:01:21 AM »
It occured to me as I was reading your situation that you could use the water itself to help your pump do the work. Not an expert here, just an idea: after pumping up water to the cistern, it could be used draw water up from the well.  


As you use the water, it creates a void.  Nature cannot tolerate a vaccum.  The huge mass lowers in the cistern as it is consumed, and would create a vaccuum.


The cistern would have to be sealed somehow.


  Thinking like the water expert, Victor/Viktor Schauberger, a scientist who discovered through observation many powerful and invisible  qualities of water.

http://www.earthtransitions.com/livingwater/schaubuger.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Schauberger

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 01:01:21 AM by mikemotorbike »

elvin1949

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Re: Texas
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2006, 01:20:31 AM »
Murlin

 Put an air compressor on it.

Air lift pumps work very well at those depth's.

later

elvin
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 01:20:31 AM by elvin1949 »

Murlin

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Re: Texas
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2006, 06:44:10 AM »
Thank you so much for your links to the water maps.


Sound wisdom about the Trinity downdrip im my area (which is upper Hill)


I think I may abandon my thoughts on the Trinity and drill another well into the Woodbine and not take in the upper water to increase the quality of the water.  


The area where I would be drilling would be able to possibly hit the main outcrop at 200 feet of so.


I need to do some map overlays on my area and check into it.


Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of this.


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 06:44:10 AM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2006, 06:45:54 AM »
That is a very intersting concept.


Food for thought for sure thanks.


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 06:45:54 AM by Murlin »

wdyasq

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Re: Texas
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2006, 07:10:52 AM »
Don't negelct to look at "Solar Stills". In far West Texas they yield a gallon of water per 7SF of glass area.  I have never seen any results if one added a "concentrator", reflectors, to add energy to the still.


The North American distributor of AWP generators is:http://www.abundantre.com/


I think African Wind Power had a deep well trubine powered by wind. For some reason I am not certain on this information. But, it may be a start on getting soem information.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 07:10:52 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

Murlin

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Re: Texas
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2006, 07:17:37 AM »
I have never heard of solar stills.....very interesting indeed....


Wonderful Ideas guys keep them comming.....


One can never have enough information....  :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 07:17:37 AM by Murlin »

Julio

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2006, 07:52:08 AM »
For African pumps try http://www.lifewater.ca/manuals.htm. Not sure if this is the one referred to.


Julio.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 07:52:08 AM by Julio »

BigBreaker

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2006, 08:03:24 AM »
You can't "pull" water up more than about 35 feet.  At that point the column of water weighs more per square inch than atmospheric pressure per square inch.  Above that height you just get vacuum (and water vapor).


So I'd avoid any pumping strategy based on vacuum avoidance - it's only good for 3% of the height you need.


I'll second the people suggesting a catchment system.  You'll want lots of storage, a pump and catchment.  Water has no substitute and you need it to live.


Bermuda is a volcanic island, actually an ancient caldera rim.  They have NO fresh water except rain (and desalinization), so everyone uses catchment.  That's why their roofs are water and clean...  they're drinking the run off.


It's not hard to use an evaporative purifier on your water... it's easy to power with solar thermal too.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 08:03:24 AM by BigBreaker »

Gary D

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2006, 10:15:45 AM »
A thought that hasn't been tossed out (much)is water treatment. Cost wise it may be the cheapest alternative. I would imagine there are several companies in your area that specialize in what you need. Might be worth a look see what they recommend, the total cost, including maintaining their systems....  Gary D.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 10:15:45 AM by Gary D »

Murlin

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2006, 11:17:31 AM »
I think I might abandon my deep well project and go for a shallower well and treat the water used for drinking.


But to answer your question on pipe size, I was thinking about 2" pipe water to come up from.


That may be too big I dunno, but I may be able to do a solar if my well is only 200 foot deep?


Maybe it would only take a couple horse power to do this?


You seem like a knowledgable engineer so what would your HP recomendations be to push water from a depth of 200 feet in a 2" pipe?


Thanks for your time


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 11:17:31 AM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2006, 11:19:08 AM »
I am definately looking into water treatment also.


Man this Fourm is GREAT!!!


So many people willing to help...


You guys ROCK!!!


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 11:19:08 AM by Murlin »

hvirtane

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2006, 11:25:00 AM »
Maybe you could use a rope pump.

Please see my diary for links and the basic technology:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/6/2/163021/1860


If it is humid there you might get water from air... not from underground.

http://www.rexresearch.com/airwells/airwells.htm


You might use electricity to get water from the air. Please see for example:

http://www.air2water.net/residential_products_countertop.html

http://www.hyflux.com/pdt_aquovate08.html

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/1390/

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/wip_waterex_wat.php


- Hannu

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 11:25:00 AM by hvirtane »

TomW

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2006, 12:26:32 PM »
Murlin;


Our well the water is 180 feet and the submersible is 3/4 horse and 1.5" tube, as I recall.


We recently replaced the old sucker rod and pump jack setup when the sucker rod wore thru the pipe and also cut off the rod. It was cheaper than replacing the pipe and sucker rod. And now we have real pressure water rather than a gravity feed tank with a drop of 15 feet. Much nicer to use and no clanking pump jack to listen to filling the tank.


Just what I remember.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 12:26:32 PM by TomW »

redeyecow

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2006, 03:46:07 PM »
  Hi, Been using a windpumper for many years on about a 35'well  out of a sand zone. It works great because there is only a small flow into the well and if you try to draw too fast it tends to get all messed up with sand and sediment. I adjust the stroke to control flow to an attic tank. Most of the cylinders are single piston with a valve in the piston and a foot valve. In sand the "leathers" in the cylinder need to be replaced every few years.  This windmill is offset from the well and uses a home built weighted walking beam to lift the water. It's not great for starting in low wind because it lifts the full weight to start.  The old style steel sucker rod occasionally freezes to the inside of the pipe but this is Alberta , probably not a problem in Texas. What about using a 1"pipe and some kind of high strength stainless steel wire for the sucker rod. Fabricating a small piston system would be quite easy.  The cylinder I have now is one I lucked onto that has 2 pistons stacked in a brass cylinder.  Any others I've seen have cast iron cylinders and one piston.

  There seems to be an advantage to sucker rod  on very deep wells because theyre still the pump of choice in the oil patch. That's where I got the idea for a walking beam.

       Good luck,  keith


 

« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 03:46:07 PM by redeyecow »

Nando

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2006, 11:56:23 AM »
Easy 200 / 1000 = 0.2 * 7.5 HP = 1.5 HP


Pipe diameter does not mean anything, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 inches will require the same HP if the same volume is extracted, the pump is working against a water column defined by the gravity and the water density weight.


The pipe diameter depends on the water delivery volume and the type of pumping set up


Water treatment may cost more long term if you are going to use OSMOSIS systems ( it as well requires a motor to PUSH at high pressure the water through the filter ) -- plus the periodic maintenance.


How much water are you using or plan to use ?.


Some systems use more than one pump to be able to raise the water the needed height.


Nando

« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 11:56:23 AM by Nando »

Nando

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2006, 12:03:49 PM »
Adding to this, 1.5 HP may deliver 1 liter/sec or 15.8 gallon/ minute, you may not need such volume


3/4 HP may be enough for your general needs, somebody already indicated that he is using 3/4 HP, though no indication of the volume extracted.


Nando

« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 12:03:49 PM by Nando »

Nando

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2006, 01:48:57 PM »
AND I DID NOT CORRECT THE CALCULATION


(200 / 1000)* 7 HP = 1.4 HP for 1 l/s


Nando

« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 01:48:57 PM by Nando »

Slingshot

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2006, 01:54:38 PM »
The maximum vacuum that can be created would be minus one atmosphere, so the most lift such a system could provide would be about 34 feet.  


Think of a water barometer - if you fill a tall, closed tube with water and invert it in a tank, the water level in the tube will sink until its height above the tank water is only about 34 feet, the amount that can supported by one atmosphere.  Above the water column, in the closed tube, will be "vacuum".  The vacuum cannot become any greater, and no amount of removal or pumping can make the water in the tube go higher.  If you pull more of the tube up out of the water, the water level will still remain at the same height from the surface.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 01:54:38 PM by Slingshot »

Aelric

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2006, 10:58:27 PM »
Early on you mentioned wanting more information on solar distillation.  Its fairly simple and can be done with as little as a bucket, a tray and a sheet of clear plastic.  I liked the other idea mentioned of using a solar concentrator to increase the output, hadn't thought of that :-)  could use a Parabolic trough, stainless pipe painted black then on the other end collect the steam, could angle it so that only steam comes out one end...  Anyway just get the steam, let it condense, and collect the condensation and viola! distilled water.  There are some neat articles about it on www.builditsolar.com  some of them very simple approaches, but with some ingenuity more complex and more automated systems could be designed.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 10:58:27 PM by Aelric »

Murlin

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2006, 07:19:15 AM »
Thank you Nando and also thanks to everyone that has replied.


There are alot more options available to me than I had first realized.


All the information is much appreciated.


Once again, you guys are great :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 07:19:15 AM by Murlin »

wlcoldiron

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Re: Asking for help on water problem
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2006, 08:33:01 PM »
my well is 2000ft deep the static water level is less than 30 ft. from the top of the well casing. What is your static water level? what is the pumping capacity of the well? I live in south texas. If I can be of any assistance contact me.  WLC
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 08:33:01 PM by wlcoldiron »