Author Topic: 8 foot wind genny  (Read 1704 times)

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johnlm

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8 foot wind genny
« on: January 15, 2005, 05:32:44 AM »
Here is some info on a machine I recently put up. My intention was to take advantage of the typical (most) everyday breezes which are from 5-15 MPH.  I have the furling set to start kicking in around 15 mph.  Its atop a 40 ft guyed single pole tower made from 2 inch and 1-1/4 inch schedule 40 pipe.  The Prop starts in about a 3-4 mph wind, and the generator hits cutin and starts charging at just under 5 mph.


Prop: 8 ft, 8:1 TSR, 3 blade


Alternator: Prestolite  3 phase auto alternator, rewound with awg 20 wire, 4 poles (coils) per phase, 46 turns per coil, Rotor fingers cut off and replaced with 8 ea

1-7/8 X 7/8 X 3/8 inch ceramic magnets.  The alternator is belt driven from a pully behind the prop hub.  The gear up ratio is 3.6:1  Alt DC resistance 1.8 Ohm, Alt Impedance 2.4 Ohm; total Impedance (Alt + leadwire + Rectifier) 3.2 Ohms.  Alternator output DC approx 2.56 V/100 RPM.


Wind    Prop    Prop     Alt     Alt      I into  Altloss Watts   Total   Effec %

mph    rpm    Watts    rpm    Volts    12.8V  Watts   Bat     Watts    theor max



  1.     112    5.30    403    10.3    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.00    0.00
  2.     140    10.3    504    12.9    0.04    0.00    0.50    0.50    2.49
  3.     168    17.9    605    15.5    0.82    1.20    11.3    12.5    31.69
  4.     196    28.4    706    18.1    1.60    4.60    22.1    26.8    39.01
  5.     224    42.3    806    20.7    2.39    10.3    32.9    43.2    38.90
  6.     252    60.3    907    23.3    3.17    18.1    43.7    61.8    36.28
  7.     280    82     1008    25.8    3.95    28.1    54.6    82.7    32.98
  8.     308    110    1109    28.4    4.74    40.4    65.4    105    29.69
  9.     336    142    1210    31.0    5.52    54.8    76.2    131    26.65
  10.     364    181    1310    33.6    6.30    71.5    87.0    158    23.94
  11.     392    226    1411    36.2    7.09    90.4    97.8    188    21.55
  12.     420    279    1512    38.8    7.87    111.5    108    220    19.45
  13.     448    338    1613    41.4    8.65    134.8    119    254    17.63


Most of these numbers are calculated.  So far the actual measurements closely verify the calculated performance data, although I don't have an accurate method of measuring the wind speed at the height of the blades.  Its not a power house but its nice to see it charging when you can barely feel a breeze at ground level.

Explaination of data:  Prop watts is .0012D^2V^3; Alt loss is the power (IR) loss in the alternator; Total Watts is Alt loss + Watts into Battery; Effeciency is watts into Battery as a % of the theoretical maximum power from a prop this size. Alt Volts is the output of the alt without a load (not connected to the Battery). I into 12.8V is the current (Amps) delivered to the battery.





Johnlm

« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 05:32:44 AM by (unknown) »

picmacmillan

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2005, 11:50:25 AM »
looks good john/.......i always like looking at a genny up on the tower.....i am wondering if your tower pipe might be a little undersized for the height you have but i imagine if you have put the guy wires at the correct height to proprotionatly be correct then you will be o.k...the center of a  triangle(mass moment  of inertia), is 1/3 from the biggest side, so if we put our guy wires real close to this point according to our height of pole and 120 degrees from each other in the circumference, we should have a pretty stable setup, that is as long as we keep the tower nice and straight so there are no bending moment stresses while the forces of the wind are acting on the genny.....i should try and dig up some facts on what the yeild strength is of this particular size of schedule 40 pipe..you wouldn't want it to bend like a pretzel under some severe wind conditions....pickster




« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 11:50:25 AM by picmacmillan »

Jerry

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2005, 10:39:48 PM »
Very impressive #s John. Your results are better than mine. I used a direct mounted blade and got these #s


5 mph 0 amps, 10 mph 0 amps, 15 mph 5 amps, 20 mph 12 amps, 25 mph 20 amps and 30 mph 25 amps.


Could you tell more of your rewiring and pole count changes. Mine is a GM alt. I replaced the rotor with a scratch built with 14 small 1"X1/2"X1/4" NEOs. I didn't scew them so it coggs pretty hard.


I think this is why It starts hard?


I'm thinking of the wave winding mod with the smaller wire and a new rotor with scewed magnets.


                     JK TAS Jerry


x

« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 10:39:48 PM by Jerry »

Jerry

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2005, 10:48:04 PM »
PS just got some 2.83" dia. donut NEOs with a 1" center hole at .35" thick.


These work great to replace the rotor coil in a car alt. This system works very well with no cogging.


I'll stack up 3 or 4. Very powerfull. If 2 are stuck together its extreamly hard to get them apart.


I've got an older Hornet genny that is built this way but Hornet didn't chages the wire size or coils.


I'm thinking after the coil mods the alt should start charging a littel at 5 MPH?


Even with direct mounted blade.


                              JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 10:48:04 PM by Jerry »

johnlm

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2005, 11:23:46 AM »
Hey Jerry,

Darn I had a very long detailed explaination typed up here and when I went to hit the number 1 key when putting in some numbers I slipped and hit the Esc key and it erased it all.  So I will start over with a breifer explaination and since you haver alot of experience and knowledge in this, it will likely be enough.


The Prestolite  automobile alt which produced the numbers in the original article is an 8 pole (4N & 4S) 3 phase alt.  I rewound it using 46T per coil, 4 coils per phase of #20 wire using the coil alignmet scheme of each coil in a phase is aligned with all N polls at onec or all S poles at once.  24 slot stator each coil in a given phase has 2 empty slots inside it and then 2 empty slots before the next coil starts.  Then these empty slots are used with each succissive phase of windings.

I cut off the orig rotor fingers but left the base field assembly on the shaft.  With the fingers cut off just at the height the original field coil starts it was just enough space to put in 1-7/8 X 7/8 X 3/8 ceramics , 8 ea.  The start up torque to overcome cogging on this unit is 15 inch oz.  It will start with a 5 ft prop direct drive in a 4 to 5 mph wind, but with the cutin RPM sitting at 480 RPM direct drive is not an option if I want any measureable charging at less than 10 or 12 mph. So I opted to gear it up with a belt and pully system.  Side note here, my measurements have not demonstrated that gear up systems are such inefficient power wasters as is typically spoke of.  I think my numbers showed I get about 93% power thruput through a typical 2 or 3 to 1 belt drive system.  The big down side is probably more maintenence.


I also converted a Delco  (14 pole) rewinding it with 11 turns per coil, 14 coils per phase arranged with a coil within a a given phase such that there is a coil over every N and S pole, with the coils in a phase sharing a slot with the next coil.  As for the rotor, I just ground off enough of the face of the original finger face to be able to mount 1 X 1/2 X 1/8 inch neos.  At first I mounted them aligned down the finger but the cogging was really bad ( around 325 inch oz) so then I remounted them diagonally with about a 30 degree tilt and got the cogging down to 108 inch oz.  This alternator puts out considerably more power than the Prestolite as the cutin V is around 310 RPM and the impedance of the alternator is less than 1/2 of the Prestolite.  Ive tested it on the mill described above with a 2.2 to 1 gear up ratio and typical numbers for it would be (using your reporting method)

5 mph 0A; 8 mph 4A; 10mph 7A ; 15 mph 16A.  It turns out that this alt is just on the edge of being (as Dan B calls it) too stiff for the 8 ft prop at a 2.2:1 gear up ratio.  It really should be only geared up about 1.8:1 to keep the blade power curve greater than the alternator power curve so the blades dont start stalling due to being loaded too heavily.


If your testing on your delco was done with your 58 inch blades that is the reason you dont get any output or even startup below 15 mph as the alternator is too much of a load for that small of blade set. Do you get these types of numbers from mounting the unit on a vehicle and driving at these speeds?? I dont have relaible 25, 30 or 35 mph winds often enough to depend on building units with smaller bladesets that get useable power out of these windspeeds.  We do have wind like this along the front range of Colorado but they are called Chinook winds and they sometimes get gusts as high as 50 to 80 mph in places, at which time you really dont want your mill to be running.  I think the Dans discovered this and that is why they are going to larger 14 and 15 ft models, to get some useable power out of those 6 to 15 mph winds.  That is why Im now building a mechanical tail vane turn it out of the wind 90 degrees manually shutoff mechanism on my larger gravity furl mill. I had one of these gusts break the shaft this 8 ft prop was attached to and the entire blade set went flying off in one piece landing about 50 ft from the tower.  Luckily it landed belly flat on the dirt so it was not severly damaged, but it did totally destroy a 14 inch alum pully mounted to the back of the blade hub that hit the steel mount structure as it broke off.


Ill take a pic of the delco, and prestolite and post it here later.


Regards

John

« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 11:23:46 AM by johnlm »

johnlm

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2005, 01:18:20 PM »
Jerry,

here are the pics.  Kind of sloppy glue jobs but there were experimental.  For the final product I will clean these up and likely reglue with polyurathane glue, after tacking the magnets in place with super glue.

John





Pretolite above





Delco above.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 01:18:20 PM by johnlm »

johnlm

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2005, 01:20:18 PM »
Looks like the pic connection to the post did not work.  You can view them in my files.


John

« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 01:20:18 PM by johnlm »

Jerry

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Re: 8 foot wind genny
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2005, 10:20:14 PM »
Hi John.


I had some piture posting problems to. Must not be us. Must be a puter glich some place?


I veiwed your alt pix. Look good. I'm hoping to put those NEO donuts in a GM alt and do some wire mods. Maybe in a few weeks?


If I do I'll post some results. Thanks for the insperation.


                        JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 10:20:14 PM by Jerry »