neat tower anchors and Arts plastic blades

[nothing to lose]

 I went to visit Art, the guy from Dans post and plastic blades. About 80 miles from me.

I saw his shop, 2 flying mills, towers, and anchores for the guy lines. Very impressive all the way around basically. This is a huge shop with some massive equipment to be sure! 250 ton plastic machines etc..  Many of those large things. Plus lots of other neat toys too of course.

I liked the blades and hub and bought myself a set today. I saw 2 mills flying and we had some fairly strong winds. These blades were moving well in lower winds and nearly imposible to see a couple times in the highest winds. Art said his area is normally mostly low wind speeds, I think he said around 8-10mph average. He had his gennie built from motors, ametec types I think. When I first arrived he was getting around 18V and about 4 amps from one gennie and the winds were not all that great. Latter in stronger winds I was not near the gauges to see what he was getting but was watching the mills and towers. In todays wind I am sure he could have made alot more power with his blades and a bigger gennie. Overall I saw his blades working well at low wind speeds and very solid and stable at fast speeds also. I think his blades were nearly silent at normal speeds and average speeds, but when they were really going hard they did make a little noise, nothing I would complain about.

His towers are neat also. I beleave he said it's 2 1/2" pipe and 30' tall. Solid as a rock, I saw no sway or movement in them. His anchores are interesting and I like that idea and will try it myself. He has 55gal steel barrels, set 4" in the ground, filled with water. One barrel was holding the guy lines for both towers even. Now if his 30' tower has been up for several years already I think that proves the merits of the barrels. For someone like me, always moving things around, barrels may be a great thing. Easier to drin a barrel of water than move a slag of concrete

 I have used sand bags, trash cans of sand, other sandy things to hold up large tents where stakes could not be driven. Even been helping with those large carnival tents and they had to go out and buy sand bands to hold them up. Why did none of us think about a simple barrel full of water then??

To raise and lower his tower he has a small concrete pad at the base, geussing 2 0r 3' square (I should have paid more attention to that). Art said he welded junk steel, old bolts and such to the bottom of the plate set in concrete to hold well. That plate has several heavy hinges and of course the top plate is connected to those hinges too

 The tower is welded to the top plate. Several bolts poke up from the bottom plate through the top plate when it is raised and that bolts that end down of course and the hinges hold the other end. Then the guys are fastened to the barrels of water to hold it all from swaying.

 Raising it is kinda standard, fasten the winch cable to a guyline about midpoint of the tower, run over a gin pole, and winch till upright.

 I just got home, my blades are still in the car even. Art did say to paint them to keep the weather out. So later tonight I will look them over well and be painting or in the morning paint them. I met the wife in town and she was supposed to stop at the store and buy the paint. Lets hope I don't end up with flouresent green and pink blades!!

[DanG]

Questions - steel or plastic barrels, and how did cable attach to barrel, and were there turnbuckles or just slide barrel for adjustment?   Thanks...

[nothing to lose]

His were steel barrels, though I suppose plastic may work also. Most plastic barrels I find are about 30 gallon though so you would lose nearly have the holding weight. about 8lbs to a gallon. 55gal about 440lb, 30gal about 240lb, actaully a bit more since water weighs a little more than 8lbs.

I should have looked closer at the cables, I think they were just looped around the barrels for a tight hold.

 Barrels he said are 4" deep, so no sliding. Besides I think if the tower would not slide the barrel it won't be so easy for us to do it either

 He may have had a cable around the barrel and connected that one to the guyline with a turn buckle, not sure. Gee I wish I had thought to look at that more closely, but I think that's how I would do it.

[Peppyy]

I like the barrel idea for a couple reasons. High Visibility! Look out, there is a cable here. I have kids running around where I am going to have my anchors and this souinds like it may work for me. The only thing I wonder about is what happens to the barrel here in vermont after it freezes several winters in a row.

I can't wait to here now those blades perform from you and Dan.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

One word:

Antifreeze.

[John II]

I think the thing that might concern me the worst about this setup is, even the tiniest leak in a barrel could windup leaving your nice wind machine laying smashed on the ground.

I use a lot of barrels, and even when tarred they still will rust pretty rapidly from acids in the soil. Filling them with sand would be safer, but if they rust enough, the whole bottom might let loose (when rusted out ) which could still cause an anchor failure.

I'd say anyone trying this, needs to replace with new barrels every 2 or 3 years... depending on how damp or wet his climate is. In dry climates a barrel of sand might last 10 or 12 years no problem. But in wet humid climates with acidic soil, It could be gone in 2 to 3 years easy.

John II

[johnlm]

I wonder if after a couple of years, the barrel bottom rusts out, the water drains out without you being aware of it and the next high wind jerks the rusty bucket out of the dirt.  

[TomW]

John;

Good point and I would fill them with rocks or sand which would eliminate freeze problems and leak issue.

Actually I would probably use concrete piers.

Cheers.

TomW

[wildbill hickup]

Hey Pep,

Where in Vermont are you, I'm in the Northeast Kingdom over nere St Jay.

Wildbill

[outback]

i would hate to carry water to those barrels 4 at 55 gal shew.

[nothing to lose]

More words

 I was thinking for bad freezing weather, if the barrels were filled with wet sand or dirt. Probably get less weight total but I dought they would freeze enough to burst. Not nearly as easy to drain if you wanted to move them, but if they are the removeable lid types you could always dig the sand or dirt back out. If they did freeze enough to crack, at least you still have the weight of the sand and dirt even if the water thaws and dries out. I would watch them as see what happens closely in that kind of weather.

Also painted black in a sunny spot might help. Unless you get a week solid of clouds and 5' snow, then your on your own.

[nothing to lose]

I would paint the barrels well myself, the bottom for sure. That should prevent rust, when setting the barrel I would try to avoid scratchy rocks at the bottom, maybe lay some scrap wood down. That is a problem I would have here, no yard just a rock field

 Using a good barrel I dought they would ever rust out from the inside, most are coated pretty good. My wood burner is many years old now and the inside is still like new and it sits the summer outside in the rain and humidity. This one is teflon lined and was a corn oil barrel as I recall. Also the out side of the barrel is just now getting suface rusted, not bad but it has a few tiny pits. I never painted this wood burner barrel, just burnt off the paint and sanded well when I built it. I was in a hurry and needed it right then, like the week before! I never actaully expected it to last this long and I can probably use it a few more years.

Now a burn barrel for trash will rust out in no time at all! Not sure why exactly but I am pretty sure it has to do with the fact they often get read hot and probably carborize the steel. As much burn out as rust out. I went through several the first few years then stopped using them for trash anyway. Heck, trash is feul! Save the clean trash, most of it is just processed wood anyway, paper and carboard, might as well use it for heat and such. I recycle nearly everything in some way

 I don't think I would worry to much about the rust myself for a nicely painted barrel.

Also I have a few been sitting in the yard a few years, there ugly but solid. Barrels will last a long time. I keep some feul in some and waste oil in others etc..

One barrel about 5 years ago, maybe longer, I filled with $#|+ and it's still good also. Now I don't mean nasty things when I said that. I had pigs, chickens etc... and what I did was scrape up alot of dirt and manure and pee where they went alot and filled the barrel with it and a bunch of leaves too. I had a small pipe welded to the side of the barrel to let the gas out. I also had a propane regulator on it and a shut off valve.

This was a solid barrel, not removable lid, and I sealed the caps. This barrel is nice and round but with egg shaped ends now. It was laying on it's side, and black. Don't know if I got the gas I was trying for or if it just got too hot in the sun and made a steam pressure inside of the barrel? I really should have paid attention to this since I think it worked well, but I got busy and forgot about it and just let it sit. Anyway other than the barrel puffing out the ends it's still like new, same as the day I laid it there. Goats got on it and broke off the valve and I neve messed with it after that.

[nothing to lose]

"Actually I would probably use concrete piers."

For a permant mounting I probably would too. But these barrels would be great for alot of uses like a test tower or where you cannot easily dig to set concrete or get concrete to that site. Many reasons a person might want to use these barrels like this.

Remote cabin area with a stream nearby for instance for summer use. Pump some water with a cheap 12V pump and your ready to go for the summer. Only got to cart in 4 empty barrels

Not 1,000lbs of concrete and spend the summer digging holes

Kinda like me and the remote house I have rented. Reason I never put up a mill there and have to charge at home or while driving my truck is that I can't/won't set concrete in the middle of that yard for 4 piers. Now I think I will have a mill setup there in about a week or two

No problem sitting 4 barrels and filling with water, and for the tower base instead of concrete I will drive a few 2" pipes deep into the ground and weld a plate to those. That should stop the base of the tower itself from sinking into the ground or sliding like if I were to just stand up a post. But at the same time when I am ready to bring it home I just drain barrels and pull the pipes straight up out of the ground. Or I could make a picknick table to mount on the pipes and leave them there incase I want to put it up again

My only real concern there is that the base pipes drivin in the ground will be solid enough to hold against the leverage while raising and lowering the tower, that should be easy enough to do.

Heck even here at home I will use these alot. I been wanting to put up a couple mills in a certain area but not sure what else I wil want to do right there. Thinking of puttin a building there to store a few cars. So for now barrels would get me up in that location, test the wind, when ready to build the building I remove the mills and barrels, build the building, put the mills on the building. I actually want the noise of the mill for that building, maybe it would act like those eletric mice repellers and keep them out of my cars and building. Not like I would be living in it, just ocasionally moving things in and out.

[nothing to lose]

Probably if a person was going to use these they should watch for such things.

As I posted just now I actaully never had a barrel problem in many years for many uses, but that's me and where I am. May not apply to everyone and every location.

Certainly I would occasionally open one of the holes and look inside to be certain they are staying full!

 I mean we have to check the water level of our batteries anyway, so not that hard to check the level of our tanks too.

I'd like to mention costs also. Barrels cost me $10 each, that's only $40 for a set of 4. Get a couple of spares and it's easy enough to ocasionally replace a barrel with a new one and check the condition of the old one. Fill the first new barrel and achore to it, set the second new barrel where your going to inspect next.

Drain the first barrel your going to inspect into the second barrel you set and pull out that first used barrel. Inspect the barrel and if like new use it again for the 3rd barrel. You don't even have to dump the water this way, just pump from one to another. You might lose alittle here or there, but not the entire 220 gallons.

If you find your barrels are rusting out in 6 months or so, set concrete and your out $40 for barrels, or your barrels are lasting fine and your out nothing at all and have $40 anchores

Well $60 if you count the 2 spares

[nothing to lose]

"i would hate to carry water to those barrels 4 at 55 gal shew."

Some people are soooo lazzy...

I think if I did not have running water and a hose I would place a really large funnel in the holes and hope for alot of rain myself

[nothing to lose]

Yet another thought on using barrels for anchores

 I made the mistake of buying some heavy wall pipe awhile back. 2" or 2 1/2", anyway I got it alot cheaper than the thin wall was going to cost me, (actually I think I got suckered into taking it). It was in a bundle and they loaded it with a lift truck. Well my thoughts on using it were all wrong (and they should have known that, they knew what I wanted it for)! Being heavy wall does not make it stronger, it makes it so it does not want to support it's own weight instead!

When I broke the bundles and unloaded it (21-25' sections) I was rather surprised to see how far it sags in the middle. Not useable for what I wanted at all.

So new idea, I will raise the pipes, using barrels as anchores, weld in cross supports as needed and get some towers at various heights as part of my bulding. Once done I can remove the anchores and it will be self standing at all towers. I been thinking about doing this for awhile, but how to hold the pipes inplace while working has been the problem I was facing. Thought about car bumpers, but most of them are plastic and I don't want to ruin the cars, plus getting them into proper place would not have been easy, to many trees and such in the way.

So, I need to buy a few more empty barrels plus cable and I can get to building now

[Bryan1]

The thought of using water in barrels for wind tower anchors is the worst idea I've seen on this forum. The potiental for disaster is a matter of time not if. When I lived in north western Oz we used 44 gallon drums filled with concrete to secure 20 foot shipping containers when a cyclone( hurricane) came around. Now just 4 of these concrete filled drums secured an empty 20 foot container in 250 kmh winds. Now as far as filling the drums just take sum of them down to the local concrete firm and for a carton of beer they should fill them with the leftovers after a run instead of washing it down the drain. I reckon this method would be a set and forget with the knowledge they won't budge in the strongest winds.

Just a thought Bryan

[nothing to lose]

"The thought of using water in barrels for wind tower anchors is the worst idea I've seen on this forum."

Totally disagree with that. Remember not every one is trying to do the exact same thing all the time!

I have one mill that I have moved around various places alot. It is just a little test mill, it is on a 1" or 1 1/2" conduit pipe varies about 20' tall. Actaully far too heavy for such a little pipe, heavy 1/4hp motor conversion, about 54" blades.

Using water barrels I can now move the mill many places I thought about in the past but could not because no anchores! Can't drive a ton of concrete to that area either, so now I can carry a few 55gal drums and drag a water hose with me

 I'll use a larger pipe there though since it will have no center bracing, currantly that mills tower pipe is always strapped to some sort of wall and only about 7-10' extends free standing. Been fine in very high winds so far. Sways around alot, never bent yet, no guys at all. I would fear the pipe bending in half before I would ever think about the barrels moving. And they won't rust out in a couple months either.

 Nothing to worry about if it falls except breaking it in those areas either.

The way trees fall over in this area I would trust a barrel of water, but never the base of a tree. They not only rot out in the middle and snap (top of one fell on my T-bird), they also fall over pulling up the roots, and somtimes snap off at ground level. I should clear cut everything less than 12" dia and replant. Then cut all the large ones that have not fell by the time the new ones get grown abit. This is a crappy second grow, some-one had the place cut before I got it, I thought nice trees, till they started dropping!

As far  as it hitting a DEER and killing it, oh well, free food! Heck I had a tree limb fall and kill one of my goats in the past!

So basically a barrel full of water is not too much to worry about here for me. And probably great uses for alot of other people too!

Ya if a major sized mill and gonna be up forever, use concrete, if your gonna be moving it around tesing various areas, use water