Author Topic: working vawt?  (Read 3985 times)

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electrondady1

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working vawt?
« on: August 06, 2005, 12:26:37 PM »
danf's artical was a little discuraging for me as i struggle with my design. if anyone has a functional unit now is the time to stand to.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 12:26:37 PM by (unknown) »

windstuffnow

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2005, 06:50:15 AM »
  Discouraging in what way?  I've built several smaller ones ( all less than 250 watts ) and they've all worked quite nicely... with the exception of a couple experimental ones that just didn't perform well.  


  They have their plus's and minus's as do the HAWT's...


  I think it depends on how you look at things, half full?  half empty?  I can see potential in all of them.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 06:50:15 AM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

tecker

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2005, 07:13:46 AM »
 


  I see the Vawt advantage a question of space available. Useing elements to direct prevailing winds to a vortex area .  

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 07:13:46 AM by tecker »

Norm

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 07:42:09 AM »
   On the otherhand I've found your comments to

be very encouraging to me....as I hope some of mine are....I've made dozens of little vawt's

none as yet connected to an alternator  or generator.  Don't look for Power in the kind of

wind available to us in our location just look

at the Energy ...this was what I was trying to

get across to some of us in....'Yay Savonius and

5-7......'

              The Day is yours....Enjoy!

                  ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 07:42:09 AM by Norm »

electrondady1

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2005, 12:46:24 PM »
thanks guys, i must have been having a "half empty" episode this morning. but i'm the most stubborn person i know. no way i'm quiting. my son gave me the name electrondady , ive got to live up to it.


shawn

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 12:46:24 PM by electrondady1 »

hvirtane

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2005, 03:14:32 PM »
danf's article was

a little discouraging for me

as i struggle with my design.

if anyone has a functional unit

now is the time to stand to.


DanF's article is very nice.


But the picture on the page 21

describing the power of different

wind machine designs seems to be

a wrong one especially

concerning Savonius rotors.


The correct knowledge

is available from G. Johnson.


http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/


---


I wanted again to point out here

the same thing, which I've

posted on this site

already earlier.


----------------------------

Most of the people

have got a wrong opinion

about the power coefficient

of Savonius rotor.


-----------------------------


According to American

research it is actually

quite good.


Unfortunately

the efficiency is put

wrong in most text books

about wind energy.


See below.


-----


From:


Wind Energy Systems

by Dr. Gary L. Johnson November 20, 2001  

http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/    


----


Agreement on the efficiency

of the Savonius turbine apparently

has finally been reached a

half century after its development.

Savonius claimed an efficiency

of 31 per cent in the wind

tunnel and 37 per cent

in free air.

However, he commented:

[10] "The calculations of Professor

Betz gave 20 % as the highest

theoretical maximum

for vertical airwheels, which under the

best of circumstances could

not produce more

than 10 % in practical output."

The theoretical

and experimental results failed

to agree. Unfortunately,

Savonius did not specify the shape

and size of his turbine well

enough for others

to try to duplicate his results.


A small unit of approximately

2 m high by 1 m diameter

was built and tested at Kansas

State University during the period

1932-1938[6]. This unit was

destroyed by a high wind, but

efficiencies of 35 to 40 %

were claimed by the researchers.

Wind tunnel tests were performed

by Sandia on 1.5 m high by 1 m

diameter Savonius turbines,

with a maximum efficiency

measured of 25 % for

semicircular blades[1].


Different blade shapes

which were tested at the

University of Illinois showed

a maximum efficiency of

about 35 %[5].

More Savonius turbines

were tested at Kansas State

University, with efficiencies

reported of about 25 %[13, 4].

It thus appears that the Savonius,

if properly designed,

has an efficiency nearly as good as the

horizontal axis propeller turbine

or the Darrieus turbine.

The Savonius turbine therefore

holds promise in applications

where low to medium technology

is required or where the high

starting torque is important.


A chart of efficiency of five

different turbine types

is shown in Fig. 8. The efficiency or

power coefficient varies with

the ratio of blade tip speed

to wind speed, with the peak value

being the number quoted for

a comparison of turbines.

This will be discussed in more detail

in Chapter 4. It may be noticed

that the peak efficiencies

of the two bladed propeller, the

Darrieus, and the Savonius

are all above 30 %, while

the American Multiblade and the Dutch

windmills peak at about 15 %.

These efficiencies indicate

that the American Multiblade is

not competitive for

generating electricity,

even though it is almost

ideally suited and very

competitive for pumping water.


The efficiency curves for

the Savonius and

the American Multiblade have

been known for

a long time[6, 10].

Unfortunately, the labels

on the two curves

were accidentally interchanged

in some key publication

in recent years, with the result

that many authors have used an

erroneous set of curves

in their writing. This historical

accident will probably take years to

correct.


------

------


The correct picture of

the power curves of the different

wind machines

is published on the next

page of Jonson's book.

Please see it there.  


---


Also it is not correct

to say that that all successful

electricity producing

modern wind machines are HAWTs.


For example 'Windside' from Finland

is a VAWT.


At present I know

only about one a little bit bigger

installed machine of this type.

The machine is in Raisio, Finland.

It has got two helical rotors

as coupled together giving

the rated power 50 kW.


That machine seems

to be quite efficient.

For example during one year

that machine produced

about 400 kWh/square meter.

It was the best wind machine

installed in Finland

during that year.

The best HAWT type produced

about 300 kWh/square meter

during the same year.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 03:14:32 PM by hvirtane »

electrondady1

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2005, 04:34:53 PM »
thanks for reminding me hannu, yes, that windside vawt is a  thing of beauty,and one of my original inspirations. it's unfortunate the mixup in efficiency curves was made and is still being reproduced.


i feel i must confess the major source of my frustration, and hope every novice builder pays attention.


NEVER BUILD A 10"DIA. DUAL ROTOR GENERATOR WHEN BOTH YOUR DRILL PRESS AND LATHE ARE ONLY 8" MAXIMUM

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 04:34:53 PM by electrondady1 »

rotornuts

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2005, 08:41:35 PM »
Hey electrondady, On monday I finally started what will hopefully be a half full Vawt based on the "closed center digression back to a modified savonius" design I did. It started as a straight blade thats 12" by 26" but after some crude flight tests I learned that as the diameter increases the torque pulsing of a straight blade is too much so because of my build method it was relatively easy to make it a helical blade. Has a pink polystyrene foam core and currently has one layer of fiberglass on it.


All the stories about polyester resin melting polystyrene are true but I painted the foam with several coats of latex primer and it reduced the melting to an acceptable level for a first build but in the future I will use an epoxy resin which is polystyrene foam safe(all epoxy resins are). The pink foam I used is the densest polysyrene available so there is no chance a higher grade will withstand the resin as this is as good as it gets. Another thing I may try is replacing resin with Minwax Polycrylic. I read about it at an RC modelers site and it appearently works well and may prove usefull for a sealer coat.


Don't bother trying the primer coat thing over foam as the results aren't really good. I only went ahead with it to utilize materials I have on hand and because this one will slowly get butchered anyhow as I'll be using it hopefully as a power producing test bed for some of my ideas.


Anywho, Don't be discouraged, the world was flat not long ago.


Mike

« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 08:41:35 PM by rotornuts »

electrondady1

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2005, 09:48:51 PM »
thanks for the laugh mike , now if i could only get my stators flatt!!!

 don't forget to show us a photo before you beat it up.it sounds great.i'm making progress too, my mag disks are now runing true enough to show me the stators are kind of warped. ha ha  
« Last Edit: August 06, 2005, 09:48:51 PM by electrondady1 »

spinner

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2006, 06:30:44 AM »
opinion:


ya build what you can, from what you can dream up,with the tools you have AND with YOUR sites winds in mind....lots of us lack our own machine shop or unlimited supplies of mags and wire (or the cash to simply buy what we'd LIKE to have)


its DIY, ain't it?

keep at it

thanx

spinner

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 06:30:44 AM by spinner »

spinner

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2006, 06:37:35 AM »
windside turbines have inspired lotsa people (including myself) to venture into some kind of similar VAWT


stay with it and ENJOY!


thanx

spinner

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 06:37:35 AM by spinner »

marreddy

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Re: working vawt?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2008, 12:28:13 PM »
Does any one know a site with drawings to make a helix or spiral wind turbine from a light weight material?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 12:28:13 PM by marreddy »