Author Topic: Variable Pitch Hub  (Read 25299 times)

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xymox

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2011, 08:47:27 AM »
yes, you are correct. I mistakenly assumed that outward force would cause the cam gear to move, it wont. A heim joint will work nicely to conenct the 2.

Menelaos

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2011, 08:58:06 AM »
Hi there,

This kind of Governor has already been constructed and patented...by me...althoug it is more complex than what I saw here on the pictures so that the blades can move in both directions, one for starting the prop in low winds and then the blades will turn the other way around in verry stron winds...

Max

Dave B

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2011, 12:07:48 PM »

That's great, if it wasn't patented I thought it should be it's so simple. Do you have any photos of yours or other's running this system ? Maybe there is a manufacture using this that is currently available possibly on a 3 blade as well ? I like it.  Dave B

Hi there,

This kind of Governor has already been constructed and patented...by me...althoug it is more complex than what I saw here on the pictures so that the blades can move in both directions, one for starting the prop in low winds and then the blades will turn the other way around in verry stron winds...

Max
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Menelaos

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2011, 01:33:04 PM »
I have not had it up running so far...too much to do on my wood gasifier project...

If u send me ur email, I could give you some selected pictures to look at for inspiration ;-)

Max

Perry1

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2011, 01:34:31 PM »
I don't think you will have much luck with the implementation of the 'canted slot' type of pitch actuation. It looks great on paper but the implementation will be the issue. Maintaining tolerances and eliminating slop in the system. Flutter and BAA (blade angle asymmetry) are huge issues for active pitch systems. Now that you have your blades moving away from the hub as part of the pitching scheme, you have exacerbated the situation. Imagine you have spent all this time balancing your hub. Now you start to speed up and the blades move out radially. Say one moves out 1 or 2 mm further than the other. Now you have a massively unbalanced hub. Sure it's easy to say just put a link in there, but executing that link is difficult. Also with the canted slot, you wont have the resolution needed to keep the angle of attach for both blades equal. When I say equal, I mean to within a degree or two (which you need aerodynamically to avoid imbalance).
I am not sure about the patent as I have seen attempts of this scheme dating back to the 30's. Perhaps that's what he was talking about.

I think active pitch is exciting so don't take my comments as squashing innovation. Just pointing out my opinion on the design presented. I would be more than happy to be wrong.

Perry

Dave B

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2011, 02:38:45 PM »
Variable pitch hubs using centrifical force of the blades moving out and twisting were designed a long, long time ago and are flying today. Trying different mechanics that use the identical concept is a good thing. The balance issue with the blades moving out has been proven to be a non issue when controlled properly. It can be humbling to see some of the amazing mechanical machines designed and built in years past. Some designs fail some succeed, trying is always successful.   Dave B.

I don't think you will have much luck with the implementation of the 'canted slot' type of pitch actuation. It looks great on paper but the implementation will be the issue. Maintaining tolerances and eliminating slop in the system. Flutter and BAA (blade angle asymmetry) are huge issues for active pitch systems. Now that you have your blades moving away from the hub as part of the pitching scheme, you have exacerbated the situation. Imagine you have spent all this time balancing your hub. Now you start to speed up and the blades move out radially. Say one moves out 1 or 2 mm further than the other. Now you have a massively unbalanced hub. Sure it's easy to say just put a link in there, but executing that link is difficult. Also with the canted slot, you wont have the resolution needed to keep the angle of attach for both blades equal. When I say equal, I mean to within a degree or two (which you need aerodynamically to avoid imbalance).
I am not sure about the patent as I have seen attempts of this scheme dating back to the 30's. Perhaps that's what he was talking about.

I think active pitch is exciting so don't take my comments as squashing innovation. Just pointing out my opinion on the design presented. I would be more than happy to be wrong.

Perry

DCB Energy Systems
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windy

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2011, 11:22:08 PM »
Goose

In the first posting, big pic 1,(http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/4523/Variable_Pitch_Hub_007.jpg) I see that the bearings that hold the blades are not inline with the center of the main shaft. Would that create any kind of imbalance or other problems?
 It's an interesting concept that I may look into. Any comments welcomed!

windy
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SparWeb

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 04:40:31 PM »
Yes, there is an effect, but it is small.  There is no imbalance, by design, but the radial loads are "eccentric" from the rotational axis.  In practice that is a small load as long as the offset is small.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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xymox

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2011, 11:07:18 AM »
Variable pitch hubs using centrifical force of the blades moving out and twisting were designed a long, long time ago and are flying today. Trying different mechanics that use the identical concept is a good thing. The balance issue with the blades moving out has been proven to be a non issue when controlled properly. It can be humbling to see some of the amazing mechanical machines designed and built in years past. Some designs fail some succeed, trying is always successful.   Dave B.

I don't think you will have much luck with the implementation of the 'canted slot' type of pitch actuation. It looks great on paper but the implementation will be the issue. Maintaining tolerances and eliminating slop in the system. Flutter and BAA (blade angle asymmetry) are huge issues for active pitch systems. Now that you have your blades moving away from the hub as part of the pitching scheme, you have exacerbated the situation. Imagine you have spent all this time balancing your hub. Now you start to speed up and the blades move out radially. Say one moves out 1 or 2 mm further than the other. Now you have a massively unbalanced hub. Sure it's easy to say just put a link in there, but executing that link is difficult. Also with the canted slot, you wont have the resolution needed to keep the angle of attach for both blades equal. When I say equal, I mean to within a degree or two (which you need aerodynamically to avoid imbalance).
I am not sure about the patent as I have seen attempts of this scheme dating back to the 30's. Perhaps that's what he was talking about.

I think active pitch is exciting so don't take my comments as squashing innovation. Just pointing out my opinion on the design presented. I would be more than happy to be wrong.

Perry


I thought the forces would be pretty small given the small distance traveled etc. Currently my biggest obstacle is finding the right size spring give 8' blades.

CaptainPatent

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2011, 12:57:35 PM »
I thought the forces would be pretty small given the small distance traveled etc. Currently my biggest obstacle is finding the right size spring give 8' blades.

When things are in balance, yes - they are small, but when they aren't - Length is squared when moment of inertia comes into play.

Let's say you have a 20 pound 8.5' blade spinning at 200rpm (pretty standard for homebrew machines) and one blade extends just .2 inches out-of-balance...

No big deal right?

Wrong.

if we then calculate the amount of opposing energies in that scenario:

Moment of inertia is T(energy) = 1/2 * m(mass - kg) * l^2 (length to the center of gravity - meters) * w^2 (angular velocity - rad/s)

So the energy difference is
"big blade" - "small blade"

Which after some conversion turns out to be around 26 joules!

That's not all - if that 26 joules is able to bend the structure your mill sits on (this is usually the case as there is usually some give in the rotating structure the mill sits on in order to enable it to rotate) and it's as small as .2 inches - that actually adds .2 inches to one side and takes it away from the other.

Now you're dealing with around 92 Joules which will contort your machine more. That 92 joules will increase the offset thus giving you more mechanical energy to dissipate in the structure which will again increase the contortion and the energy.

because length is squared, this is a runaway scenario. Once it reaches a critical point, you will no longer have a machine as it will have ripped itself apart.

To add to this, the vibration you'll deal with will constantly wear your mill mechanically and that critical point will slowly be lowered as your materials weaken.

Yes, there *may* be people that are flying their mill with these types of balance problems, but the overall life of their mill will be reduced based on the severity of the balance issue. I strongly reccommend not overlooking this unless you're ok with just having a mill for a couple of months instead of several years.

xymox

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2011, 11:29:28 AM »
Good thoughts, I am trying to imaginge a scenario where the blade would be moving out farther than the opposing, the result is vibration as you say. Vibrations, in short order, would be our friend as it would cause the "stuck" side to vibrate loose and find its own equalibrium.

am I way off base?

midwoud1

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2011, 01:26:47 PM »
A very good example ,The passive pitch wich Janne has made .
Clear visible how it is done . I had the same construction working good .
Active pitch is more complex and in my opinion a bit better .
I like the auto feathering with increasing wind .
There is 3 people now in the Netherlands working with it.
Rgds. F.

phil b

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2011, 09:15:17 PM »
That's a work of art midwoud1. Can you post the specifications?  ;D
Phil

fabricator

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2011, 08:45:30 PM »
The fabrication is beautiful, it appears to be connected to an electric motor, a youtube video of it in action would be fantastic.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
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Bruce S

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2011, 05:31:32 AM »
FAB;
 I may be wrong, but from what I can see, those are industrial sized stepper motors connected to a jack screw of sorts.
The active controls tell the steppers exactly  how far to move in either direction and with an ability very precise in the number of "steps" they take.

midwould1:
Am I correct or ?
NICE work!! VERY robust.
Cheers;
Bruce S 
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midwoud1

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2011, 07:37:35 AM »
Hi Phil, Fab , Bruce

What you see on the image is a passive pitch .
The aluminum housings you see are flanged bearing housings.
The flyweights and central spring making it variable.
A stepper motor is a good idea ,but must command with pushrod ,hollow-shaft and spider.

I must say the photo is a design of Janne from Finland . I found it in his photo gallery.
Active pitch is showed in my own posts .I see people enthousiast .
But I am missing people making it too. Maybe because of electronics ?

Frans .

midwoud1

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2011, 11:43:21 AM »
Variable pitch with stepper motor .PLC needed.
Windturbine 25 Kw.  Very nice machined . Quick response action.
Impossible for DIY .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvbcgk8Nxew&feature=related

    F.

whythehecknot

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2011, 12:37:06 PM »
 :o Cotton picken, dang, dang, double dang, heck >:(. Just when I think I have an original idea someone up and bests me ;). Super good work, and these work too because I made one myself but much cruder, and with the same control in the center to sycronize although in the picture Ive removed it ( its actually a part of the axle on my turbine). But what I found, at least on mine is that it would pitch all at once and not progreesively like I had hoped for. So it became more of a furling devise for me than anything else. My design was made using 1 inch all thread and 1 inch nuts sandwitched between two steel disks. Heres the link to the picture... By the way how does one edit a picture to make it fit onto a post????  http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/redhairdman/variablepitchhub002.jpg

   I hert my brain thinking up this thing and here two other guys came up with it as well but only better...

bj

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2011, 03:02:33 PM »
Well Frans, nothing is impossible, but that's close.  Very nice piece though.
Whythehecknot--I've been using the snipping tool that's build into windows.  Snip, modify, and save as JPG.  I'd say
fairly easy to do, 'cause I can do it, and it doesn't take much to confuse me some days. ;D
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xymox

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2011, 10:42:35 AM »
Looks like a more complicated version of this.



from
http://evankontras.com/html/engineering_projects.html

has a link to a power point in it with a breakdown of parts.

xymox

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2011, 10:43:39 AM »
I guess the question is:
What is the best mousetrap here?

TomW

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2011, 11:06:29 AM »
I guess the question is:
What is the best mousetrap here?

I always found the ball bearing mouse trap to be pretty good.  ;D

Tom

xymox

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2011, 12:15:28 PM »
midwould, you know what kind of bearings they are using there?

midwoud1

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2011, 01:36:59 PM »
xymox .Good question.  I think bronze bushings or Linealite Bushings.

SparWeb

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Re: Variable Pitch Hub
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2011, 02:39:00 PM »
Looks like a more complicated version of this.

{img}
from
http://evankontras.com/html/engineering_projects.html

has a link to a power point in it with a breakdown of parts.

xymox,
Just in case you are tempted, don't build that yourself the way it's shown in the pictures.
Slots are not going to give you a pitch control without a lot of sloppy play in the position.
Just a few thousandths of an inch will allow one degree of blade pitch.

The pitch-arm levers as shown in Janne's hub naturally reduces "slop" by design.
Any play in a joint such as the spider's position on the central guide will be fractioned by the length of the control rod.

edit:
And:  putting slots in the blade shaft like that invites fatigue failure!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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