Author Topic: Disaster with wind turbine  (Read 4834 times)

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Otto

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Disaster with wind turbine
« on: April 13, 2008, 12:38:18 AM »
We have had heavy winds and rain this past week and I thought the turbine sounded funny but due to the weather conditions I was unable to investigate the noise.  Well today my biggest fear came true and my turbine threw the blades hub and all through my skylite.  Of course I am at work, so my son and wife had to tie a tarp around the new opening in my roof. Thank god no one was hurt.

What bothers me is I thought I made every attempt to secure the hub to the shaft. First I cut a keyway into the shaft, then there are two counter sunk set screws which I loctited and backed them up with two more loctited set screws.  Lastly I drilled an 1/8" hole through my hub and shaft and had a small rod go through both and then bent the rod over.  My turbine is a treadmill motor.

As you can see from the attached old picture of my turbine and intact skylite, there were many places for the blades to fall but they found an 8'sq foot skylite to go through.


I was limited to were I could erect the tower due to the septic field and trees.


Otto




« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 12:38:18 AM by (unknown) »

richhagen

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2008, 08:23:22 PM »
Sounds like Murphy's law at work there.  I probably would have trouble getting a basketball through your skylight in the photo from the top of the tower on the first few shots.  Of course I was never all that good at basketball.  Rich
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 08:23:22 PM by richhagen »
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DanB

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2008, 08:32:06 PM »
Amazing...  

glad nobody was hurt, it's unbelievably bad luck that it should find the skylight!  Talk about perfect aim..


On a wind turbine, a keyed shaft with set screws is not good enough in my opinion.  Most wind turbines with shafts have a tapered shaft.  If I was using a motor with a straight shaft I would at least use a 'tapered lock hub' sort of like this:



I used to build lots of machines with ametek tape drive motors - same sort of thing, straight tapered shaft, and the hubs would always fall off after a year or two, or at least get loose and we'd save it before they fell off.  I either wound up using a tapered lock hub - or welding the hub to the shaft in such a way I could grind it off when needed (for bearing replacement).  A hub that relies only on the key, and set screws is insufficient.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 08:32:06 PM by DanB »
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Otto

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2008, 08:39:35 PM »
Thanks for the comments. I was hoping the small rod going through the hub and shaft would be a good back up for the 4 set screws.

Otto
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 08:39:35 PM by Otto »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008, 09:10:15 PM »
This is pertinent for me at this time.  I have a F&P shaft with a 25mm spline.  I just ordered a hub from TLGWindpower for an 8.5' rotor.  The hub has a 17mm hole.  I was going to go to a machine shop, have the hole enlarged, smooth and key the spline and use a key lock.  Now you are saying that this is not good.  Is it that the lock screws fail under the constant stress?


Other than welding, you mentioned a tapered locked hub?  How is this held in place?  If the shaft tapers can't the hub come off the front?  Do you have a picture or diagram and I will bring this to the shop and have this done instead?


Thanks

« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 09:10:15 PM by imsmooth »

wolfie

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 11:58:59 PM »
taper lock hubs are a 2 piece hub that locks on to a straight shaft, the taper is internal in the hub, i work in a forge, and these are the hubs we use on all our motors, upto and including 350hp 480volt motors, once locked on, they do not come off un less removed
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 11:58:59 PM by wolfie »

john j

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 01:27:29 AM »
Ive seen on some farm equipment, they double lock things by drilling a hole through axle and hub, and driving a hollow steel dowel through. Extremely strong and not affected by vibration. Would this work?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 01:27:29 AM by john j »

Flux

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 02:18:45 AM »
I don't think we have enough details of the set up to really know why it failed.


Wind turbines are severe life testing machines and things will fail on a wind turbine that would run under other conditions.


Unless a coupling is a press fit on a shaft there is likely to be movement during acceleration and deceleration. Even a keyway has to be perfectly cut to avoid this forwards and backwards fretting that will eventually loosen things. I have had satisfactory results with a parallel keyed shaft that is well fitted and locked axially with a good big nut on the end of the thread.


The taperlock scheme is by far the most satisfactory and normally will work perfectly well without a key but a key backup helps.


For small motors and shafts the fit between coupling and shaft is very critical and anything less than a press fit will likely be a source of trouble. If keyed and two grub screws are used fitted at 90 deg then I would expect it to be ok as long as though it is not a very loose fit. For some reason the rest of the world uses one grub screw or two diametrically opposite one another and this will guarantee failure.


A loose pin through the hub and shaft gives short term protection but it will eventually fret through and fail. If the fit is good a roll pin or a well fitted taper pin will be ok, but if the hub is not a really good slide fit or better on the shaft then again these things will eventually fail.


Drilling holes through the shaft can seriously weaken some of the small motor shafts so you have to watch that you don't cause a shaft failure.


Parallel splines can be just as bad unless you have a really decent nut on the end of the shaft and lock the thing endways so tight that it can't fret on the splines ( think of car drive shafts and the big nut with huge tightening torque).


Any form of hub with a taper fitting is fine ( with or without a key) but it will need pullers to remove it and if you work up a tower you will not appreciate having to handle a set of pullers. If you can lower the whole thing then there is no problem.


Even decently engineered things fail and I sometimes fear dreadful things when I see some of the low grade engineering with some of the newcomers with small motors, and limited facilities, they are disasters waiting to happen.


Surprisingly nearly all these things actually fall off when the speed drops and the thing just lands underneath on the ground. When something departs at high speed then there is real potential for damage.


Flux

« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 02:18:45 AM by Flux »

Otto

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 02:40:50 AM »
I will investigate the cause of the failure and post pictures when I get off work.  If someone can learn from other's mistakes that will hopefully prevent an accident and save time and money.

Thanks

Otto
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 02:40:50 AM by Otto »

Basil

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 03:16:37 AM »
On a straight shaft of any size I drill a small hole in the shaft for the setscrews to set in. Then when It's going together permanent I lock tight the setscrews in place. I use blue lock tight so I can take it back off. If you use red it's there.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 03:16:37 AM by Basil »

TimV

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 06:06:56 AM »
Sorry about your mishap.

Sounds like you chose a very good method to secure you prop with key,double set screws and loctite.But.....


I also agree with everyone that the tapered bub with a key slot is by far a very good way to attach.

Also you can order bolts with holes drilled sideways in bolt heads and after you have tightened and loctited etc. you run a good strong wire between the bolts so there is no way possible for them rotate and loosen themselves.

Or if you want a 100% sure way to retain the prop. You buid a new shaft with a step in it leaving extra length to be turned down  smaller and threaded and then add double locking nuts with a  a provison in shaft for a keyed locking tab to be installed between the nuts and after they are tightened you bend over the retaining tabs in opposite directions so both nuts are captivated.

Only way this can open is if you break the shaft or bend back the tabs and loosen the jam nuts. This is how heavy trucks secure axle bearing hubs which are subjected to huge load pressures and also are reversed which make it even more difficult to retain.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 06:06:56 AM by TimV »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 06:26:19 AM »
Is the taper lock hub something that one can buy?  Can a machine shop make this?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 06:26:19 AM by imsmooth »

TimV

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 06:39:51 AM »
Yes you can buy a taper lock at any bearing supply or industrial supply house and if you google I bet you can order them online.

I get a lot of stuff from WW Granger and another is McMaster Carr and I like Bailey Sales out of Knoxville Tn. And if you like gadgets ets   "The Suplus Center" has a free catalong with generators and tons of stuff.

Look up "Browning" I think they make the "Taper Lock" brand

Also rember you can order hubs and bushings in different lengths as well as different bores. Order as long or deep a hub you can use as it will give you greater holding power using more surface.

Another is Northern Hydraulics Industrial catalog    
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 06:39:51 AM by TimV »

RobC

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 08:04:48 AM »
Taper lock hubs are used everywhere. Any bearing supplier should have them. You can find hubs with taper locks that you can weld on sprockets, pulleys, disks, etc as well.

RobC
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 08:04:48 AM by RobC »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 08:17:46 AM »
Thanks, Tim.  I see some on the Grainger website.  Please correct me if my understanding of them is wrong:


I will take my shaft, which is 25mm and have the rotor hub made to just fit over it.  The rotor hub and shaft can have a key lock.  Behind the rotor hub will be a taper-lock hub.  There will be a taper-lock hub in front.  This will squeeze the hub together.  As an alternate method can I have the shaft taper slightly larger so the rotor hub gets tighter the further down the shaft it is pushed?


The taper lock hub works by using the screws to squeeze the internal ring tightly around the shaft so friction keeps them together.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 08:17:46 AM by imsmooth »

freeEnergy4me

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 09:25:16 AM »
And this is why I'm not going to ever have a decent-size wind turbine. With a small lot and neighbors nearby, I'd hate to be responsible for a be-heading.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 09:25:16 AM by freeEnergy4me »

Jeff

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2008, 09:33:47 AM »
Dayummm! Sorry to see that! It looks like everyone pretty much coverd the tapered shaft type mounting. As a sort of "retired" Tool & Die Maker & Engineer, I can definitely back that up. Also, just for future, or anyone elses reference: first-year apprentice tool&die school teaches: NEVER put set screws 180degrees apart (directly opposite each other), they work against each other and will always come loose. 45-120degrees apart is best. I even caught this on a power wheelchair a company tried to talk me into! I couldn't believe it!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 09:33:47 AM by Jeff »

vawtman

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2008, 06:09:53 PM »
Hi Mike

 Has the old saying goes"when the going gets tough the tough get going"so hang in there.You have conquered many of your early frustrations already.

 Best wishes for ya.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 06:09:53 PM by vawtman »

MattM

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2008, 06:50:59 PM »
What's wrong with cotter pins?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 06:50:59 PM by MattM »

kenputer

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2008, 07:42:40 PM »
For the F&P go to randysworkshop.com he has some laser cut plates that adapt blades securely to the F&P hubs
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 07:42:40 PM by kenputer »

TimV

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2008, 08:18:29 PM »
You can bore your existing hub(if it is large enough) to accept a stock weld in hub that will take a taper lock bushing.

Or a shop could taper bore your hub  and drill it and thread it so it would take a Taper lock bushing to.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 08:18:29 PM by TimV »

Flux

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 01:00:57 AM »
Nothing for their intended purpose, this is not one of them.

Flux
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 01:00:57 AM by Flux »

Jimmy D

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 12:17:50 PM »
 Very sorry about your turbine, thankfully no injuries.Thanks so much for this story as I WAS just about to do the same thing. My shaft is 1 and 1/8th inches in diameter with a set screw right on top of a 1/4" keyway and another at 90 degrees.I think I better drill this second set screw hole straight through the shaft and all. Then possibly a really good bolt, loctight and a nyloc nut. Anyway thanks your story probably saved me.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 12:17:50 PM by Jimmy D »

TomW

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 12:35:54 PM »
Jimmy;


Zubbly [R.I.P. my friend] always bored and tapped the end of the shaft so you could stick a 3/8 bolt with washer into it as a keeper. He claimed done properly with a keyed hub and some loctite it would never ever shed a blade.


He also told me when doing this not to use a set screw anywhere but over the key because it damages the shaft.


Just passing on that excellent advice and its not my idea.


TomW

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 12:35:54 PM by TomW »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 02:37:17 PM »
I looked into this, but Randy doesn't have the hub for the blades I'm getting.  He said he couldn't help.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:37:17 PM by imsmooth »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2008, 02:41:14 PM »
I think this is what I am going to do.  The shaft is 25mm.  I can bore the rotor hub to take the shaft and key.  I can bore the shaft in front down to 0.875 to take a standard 0.875in bushing taper lock from grainger.com


Will 0.875 steel shaft be ok for an 8.5' rotor?

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:41:14 PM by imsmooth »

MattM

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2008, 05:35:14 PM »
I differ in that opinion.  You can fashion a hole for one on the end of the shaft so the blade doesn't leave the hub.


The keyed groove with lock pin on the shaft is more meant for a sheering point when equipment gets over-torqued.  Better to sheer the pin than to bend the shaft out of alignment.


If the lock pin sheers off the cotter pin keeps the blade on the shaft and the blade assembly just free spins.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 05:35:14 PM by MattM »

MattM

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2008, 05:38:50 PM »
Typo: "You can fashion a hole for one on the end of the shaft so the blade doesn't leave the hub."


Should have read: "You can fashion a hole for one on the end of the shaft so the hub doesn't leave the shaft."

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 05:38:50 PM by MattM »

Flux

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2008, 01:21:54 AM »
Sorry I assumed you meant it as a means of driving.


I agree that used as you suggest it gives you a back up to hold the thing in place. As long as you get it down as soon as it is seen to be running on no load you have a chance of saving the situation if not the shaft.


Flux

« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 01:21:54 AM by Flux »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2008, 03:43:07 PM »
I was just on the phone with a Grainger technician.  He suggested using a shaft collar and drilling a hole through the collar and shaft, and using a bolt running through it.


What is the consensus on this?

« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 03:43:07 PM by imsmooth »

vawtman

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2008, 05:57:29 PM »
 Good quick fix but not long term.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 05:57:29 PM by vawtman »

imsmooth

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2008, 07:19:52 PM »
So what is the long term solution?  The guy at Grainger said that taper locks can slide off, too.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 07:19:52 PM by imsmooth »

vawtman

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Re: Disaster with wind turbine
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2008, 02:54:49 PM »
 I would use shafting epoxy in conjuction with the tapered hub.You would not be able to play with it for a day though.It wont come off unless heated.Make sure to roughen both surfaces.


Mark

« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 02:54:49 PM by vawtman »