Help With Garbogen Cogging

[RogerAS]

Hey All,

(Especially Jerry)

I bought a assembled garbogen, along with a hub and set of those plastic blades, from Jerry back last spring and have had it on a short test pole for a couple months. I have it set to run free (not hooked to a load). Those same blades drive an ECM (Electronically Commutated Motor) very well and silently.

The problem is that even in some pretty serious wind, 20+ MPH the garbogen turbine will not start up on its own. If I give it a kick start by hand it will run up and make good voltage with the wild AC. The only time I have seen it self start is when hurricane Ike came through and we have some winds well over 60 MPH. Those winds snapped several trees and are not typical of our normal conditions. Thank goodness!

Would fabricating a set of flat steel extension bars (3/8" thick X 2" wide) to extend the blade out about a foot long help? If this would help overcome the cogging would such a solution create a possibility that these extension bars would bend back and alloow the blades to strike the tower? Would such a solution cause other issues of which I have not considered? Could it be that the bearings are just new and stiff and the unit will "free up" with some run time? Is there another solution I have overlooked?

I really need to figure this out ASAP because I have my tower 90% ready to raise and our prime wind season is about to start. The sooner I can get this turbine in operation the sooner I can cut back on running my Kubota backup system. I am convinced that this turbine will be a valuable addition to our production system when this cogging issue can be addressed.

Thanks in advance.

[Jerry]

Hi Roger.

The Garbogen should be rotateing by 10 mph. Can you spin the shaft by hand?

I have a Garbogen right here and I can spin the shaft with thumb and for finger. It should spin that easy.

If its harder then that theres most likely a bearing or magnet isue.

I had some problems with magnets bracking loose on the solid steel armatures and sliding together as a solid group.

This would cause a cogging isue.  I've since added 6-32 stanless steel screws acrosse the face of the armatur and through some aluminum plates on the sides along with a body panel addhesive to keep the assembly secure.

If you can pull one end cap off and look inside see if you see something like this?

If not then remove the rotor and send it to me and I'll upgrade it for you NC.

Removing the rotor is a bare. The magnetic force holding in is very strong. If that dosn't work for you then send me the the complete PMA only and I'll do the upgrade.

Then I'll ship it back to you asap.

                       JK TAS Jerry

[RogerAS]

Hey Jerry,

You wrote:

"Can you spin the shaft by hand?"

Yes, but there is a good deal of cogging. I have not measured the actual torque. While it can be spun there is no way I could spin the bare shaft with thumb and fingers. If I could spin it, it would immediately stop as it does now with the blades attached in a no wind condition.

I will open it up and look for the issue you cite.

This morning we had some nice steady winds that must have been close to sustained 20 MPH with gusts well over that. (I need an aenometer badly) I went out after my first posting and hooked up the DVM to a pair of leads. I push started the blades and it ran up to about 13 V AC. The ECM was reaching battery voltage of 13.2 and above (slightly) This condition of self running held for about 30-45 minutes and then our wind died offf. As soon as the wind subsided the blades came to a halt with little bumpy quivers. The ECM is still spinning now in the light (10 MPH) breeze while the garbogen is stationary.

I will get back to you later today after I remove the back side end plate. I have to make a quick run to my local store for some gas and check the mail and will get back ASAP. If I see something suspect I will pull the blades and send the rotor if I can pull it. IF not I will send the whole gen head. I may snap a photo and attach that to my follow-up posting because I really do not know what is right or wrong and you da man!

Thanks bud!

[RogerAS]

Jerry,

I took the blades/hub off first and gave it the thumb and finger test you suggested. While I could spin the rotor it would not rotate one complete turn before stopping and I really gave it everything I had. This is not a new development as it has always seemed to resist turning.

I should have asked these questions sooner.

The bearings are free and smooth.

I pulled the rotor and took the following pictures. What a chore! The rust on the shaft seems to have locked the bearings in place, or they have been pressed on. I'm not so sure I can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. How in the world can I get the bearings off the shaft while keeping them (bearings) in the decking material? I may have to send the whole gen head back to you after this little experiment to be reassembled. I do not think I've caused any real damage to the machine, but did chip the decking material in a couple places.

I seems that whatever is causing the cogging issue I need to seal the turbine head with a good series of silicone sealant beads to keep the water out AND build a weather shield. When I removed the long screws that bind the end plates on a good deal of water ran out. The stator laminates are also showing a little rust in a few places. As I said earlier this has only been exposed to the weather for a couple months. I'm sortta surprised that this much rust can form in such a short time. Maybe the magnets should be masked off and a good paint applied to the exposed core of the rotor.

Anyway, here's the pictures that can explain the situation better than my words. The construction seems the same as in your image and none of the magnets are loose or corroded.

Looking at the side of the rotor:

Front oblique view of the rotor:

Rear oblique view of the rotor:

I await your advice.

[FishbonzWV]

Roger,

My first conversion ended up with rust also, even though I sprayed the entire insides (rotor, mags, and stator) with clear coat enamel and sealed it up tight. It rusted in just a couple of months.

Now I drill 1/8" breathing holes in the bottom side of the housing close to each end, and on the motors I use, there is also a place on the top where I can drill one that is out of the weather. I think a lot of the rust is from condensation due to temperature change.

I also shoot multiple coats of clear coat now, rather than just one.

I just dropped that conversion down to replace with the new one and there was very little if any more rust. It had been up for about a year. So from now on I'm letting mine breathe.

Fishbonz

[RogerAS]

Hey Fish,

I agree but about condensation, but there was at least 3 tablespoons of water trapped inside the gen head. There had to be some penetration as well as condensation. I am thinking the same thing about a weep hole on the bottom side and a secondary cover over the head. Some silicone smeared around will surely help too. I think some dremel work would clean up this rust and a few coats of paint would stop the rotor from getting any more.

We had one of the wettest late summer-early falls on record here in N.C. Arkansas ever recorded. Between the 2 hurricanes that came through and the other abnormal rains we got it was really really wet for a long long time. I worried about this a little but figured since Jerry lives in W. Oregon this was not an issue. I figured wrong! Our relative humidity can go from 100% to 30% and back to 100% in 24 hours. We also experience fairly high temperature swings to go along with that.

If Jerry thinks the cogging is because I just do not have a good wind site he may be right. However there were some fairly large limbs blown out of the trees today as a result of a front approaching. Like I said I really need to get me an aenometer to know for sure what I am looking at.

I just wonder if adding the extender bars for the blades, which I mentioned earlier, might get it over the hump for startup. I really do not feel this is a problem with the machine, directly. Maybe when it gets 40 feet up as opposed to the 10 feet I had it set at for testing this issue will go away.

Combine all this with living in a fairly dense hardwood forest and a wife not too keen on my using the chainsaw to open up the airflow any more than I already have and I may have to live with low production of electricity from wind. It seems odd that my ECM and stepper motor turbines will spin up pretty well and this one just does not want to go. Thos small turbines were giving me about 7 amps @ 12V while the garbogen was still as a mouse. It may just be a matter of needing a different set of blades for my conditions. Yes, I am a little frustrated, but no where near ready to throw in the towel.

I will wait for Jerry to provide his opinion before I do anything, but I greatly appreciate your input.

[FishbonzWV]

Did you measure the distance between mags? One set should be offset from the other set. It's been too long since Jerry posted those conversions that I can't remember the details.

If the spacing is equal between all the mags it will cog.

After you clean up the rust with the dremel you can use Muratic acid to clean the metal to like new and then paint. If I can't soak it in a bucket, then I use a horse hair paint brush and just daub the acid on the part and let it set and repeat until all the rust is gone. Safety gear required.

[RogerAS]

Fish,

No, I have not measured the spacing. I will do so tomorrow. The gen head is out in the engine room and it's raining and cold and dark now. Momma's home and we're settled in for the night with a good warm fire going in the furnace.

I wonder if I could mount a second hub and set of 3 blades to overcome the cogging should there be no other alternative.

Jerry epoxied those mags down very well indeed!

Good tips on the cleanup. Have dealt with muratic before and can be nasty stuff.

Thanks again, and will wait for Jerry to chime in.

[Jerry]

Hi Roger.

I think with that much water infiltration the bearings may have a slight isue.

even though there sealed, your humidity swings sound like mosture trubles.

I'd do the drain holes as sugjested. You are right about needing that anamometer. If your only 10 ft off the ground the wind in that spot may be siriusly lacking concidering all those trees you have.

Send complete head back, I'll clean it up change the bearings add the drain holes and do some tests. Also seal it against your tropical mousture.

Hope to have the wind tunnel soon, then I can do some acurate cutin test.

If your going to keep in on the ground I'll send you some extentions. We'll change it from 49" to 55".

That also may help to brake it loose though at the loss of some top end.

                        JK TAS Jerry

[RogerAS]

Hey Jerry,

First off please understand I am NOT upset with you in any way!

I will ship the head back ASAP. I may not reassemble it as this is a pain in the backside.

I really appreciate your prompt attention to this matter.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a good aenometer that does not cost an arm and a leg?

Again, thanks Jerry

[TomW]

Roger;



Does anyone have a suggestion for a good aenometer that does not cost an arm and a leg?

I think that would make a nice little "Cottage Industry" product for someone to build in their kitchen and sell. At least a basic head that you can interface to some form of logger. Wireless web interface for the geeks 2 wires for the analog types. Simple meter for the just want to see a reading types.

Wheres Ron Popiel when you need him?

Guess we are stuck with Ghurd so poke him. Hehe.

Tom

[Jerry]

Hi Roger.

Hey thanks for the kind words. I didn't think you were unhappy with me.

I just want to make sure you get a good working genny. Thats what you payed for and thats what you should have.

When there are problems like this it actuly helps to find them to avoid problems in the future.

Its kinda like the rash of furling problems this last week or rash of  burned stator problems.

We got the best feid test system going here. The end results will be some very fine machines. So lets keep taking the problems head on and finding the answers.

I'll get busy when it arives and strive for some weatherization upgrades.

                    JK TAS Jerry

[ghurd]

What exactly is an amenemometerizer?

Consider me poked.

Remember it is like 3rd on the 'big list',

Just behind the reverse-anti-LVD-backwards-grid-tied-UPS.

And I do not understand trivial things, such as TSR with VAWTs.

My understanding is amoebammeterizers are usually VAWTs.

Anybody got an asprine?

G-

[valterra]

Sometimes I feel like "#2."  Thanks for confirming.