Author Topic: Magnet size vs Rotor size  (Read 2657 times)

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Miller Time

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Magnet size vs Rotor size
« on: January 19, 2009, 01:07:15 AM »
First time posting; here goes. I have 65 rare earth magnets that came out of a factory setting metal collection line of product flow system.  They are encased in aluminum sleeves and I will be removing them for wind power useage.  They are 7/8 in diameter and 1 inch tall cylinders or discs if u like.  They are very powerful outside of the aluminum sleeves. Because of there small diameter I'm unsure if I can use them with the Bartmann & Fink (Homebrew Wind Power) design.  Most likely have to change Rotor diameter or gauge of wire or both??  My first attempt at this sort of thing and just trying to get info. for matching alternator to blades.  Looking to set up with 48 volt to cut down on wiring cost. Some questions anyone might answer for me would include:  Where to get info about magnet to coil ratio? besides 4:3  Is it possible to set up magnets on 12.5 inch rotor with more space b/t magnets or more magnets and therefore more coils?  What about AWG of wire with this size magnet to reach 48volt?  Would this size magnet make a better 5 foot windmill instead with smaller rotor diameter?  Hope this is not to elementary for anyone; please know any information will be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 01:07:15 AM by (unknown) »

Airstream

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2009, 07:39:08 PM »
Good recycle acquisition - nice loot to add into a project design!


Magnet coil ratios? 3-Phase is very good staying with 4:3 unless you want to go single phase. I think it boils down to a power output versus layout simplicity and best use of space question, some may argue 5-Phase yields better power but requires a more wiring ($) to drop down the tower to more ($) rectifiers than 3-Phase does..


I'll leave the rest of your questions to someone else...

« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 07:39:08 PM by Airstream »

Miller Time

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2009, 08:39:01 PM »
Thanks Airstream, after doing some reading here on the board I think 3-Phase is the way for me. I read somewhere that stator thickness can be in the neighbourhood of magnet thickness ( one inch ). This would also mean that I could do a large wined coil if I stick to the 12 magnet per rotor and 9 coil. At what gauge though?  I'd like 48 volt output. The winds are anywhere from 5km/hr to 20km/hr. I'd have to say though that most times where at 7-10 MPH.  My site is treeless at the moment so with proper planning I might get good results. Thanks for the reply Airstream.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 08:39:01 PM by Miller Time »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2009, 09:09:19 PM »
with a 12 1/2" disc and 7/8 inch magnets you may want to go 16 magnets to 12 coils and 3 phase
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 09:09:19 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

Flux

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2009, 02:21:07 AM »
I am sure you can use them but you will need to do some experimenting so don't expect an easy answer. I don't think you have enough magnet to do a 10ft machine, but without knowing what your magnets are it is impossible even to make a guess.


65 is a no go so say 64, that makes sense to try 16 poles with 2 magnets stacked radially per pole. You will probably need to increase disc diameter so that the gaps are about equal to magnet diameter. Use 12 coils and you will need to guess a prop diameter so that you can choose a cut in speed. Make a test coil about 1" thick with hole about 3/4 wide and 2" long with sufficient wire to touch its neighbours ( draw out 12 coils to get the size).


When you have found your turns for 48v cut in you can choose a wire size to fill the winding area and then calculate the resistance. From that you will be able to see if it will take a 10ft prop. When you find that it won't ( very likely) you try for an 8ft prop and see if that works. You should find all the details about test coils and calculating output from resistance here somewhere. it will be a long slog if you are way off first time.


If the magnets are neo then try for 8ft as a first attempt. If Samarium Cobalt then try 7ft. If they turn out to be some bonded rare earth material you may be down to 5ft.


In some ways it may be better to try using 8 pole on something like 8" discs with 6 coils and doing a small test alternator. That way you could still establish the flux level you have with much less effort and outlay. If from the little machine with 16 magnets the flux level looks promising enough to proceed to a big one with all the magnets then you have a lot of useful data. If you stick the magnets with superglue you should be able to remove them if you decide to go for a bigger version.


Just one final point, check that the poles are at the ends of the cylinder, if they are from a separator that seems likely but don't assume anything.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 02:21:07 AM by Flux »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 06:38:33 AM »
""Is it possible to set up magnets on 12.5 inch rotor with more space b/t magnets or more magnets and therefore more coils?""


If I've done my ciphering correctly then by using 16 magnets stacked radially on a 12.5" disc you should get 1 1/16 inches between magnets at their closest point. The magnets will be closest to each other at the center of the lower round magnet, or 1.5 times the magnet diameter from the edge of the disc. S0 7/8 X 1.5 = 1.3125 , then double that for the magnets on the other end of the disc gives you 2.625 , subtract that from the 12.5 " disc and you get 9.875 inches which will be the diameter of the disc where the magnets are closest. Times pi gives you 31 inches. Divide that by 16 and subtract the width of 1 magnet gives you a little over an inch.


Not to say anything against trying a smaller machine first just thought the 12.5" rotor sounded right for 16 magnets.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 06:38:33 AM by TheCasualTraveler »

Miller Time

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2009, 03:37:32 PM »
Hey Andy, Is this right? A little over an inch between magnets at 9.875 in diameter point?  Could U please explain the Pi*Diameter to me.  My Calculations find this: 0.875inch magnets * 16=14inches  Now @ 9.875in diameter I get a circumference of pi * radius squared = 76.59inches  if this is correct then 76.59 - 14inches of magnets leaves 62.59 inches.  Now I divide by the 16 spaces b/t and come up with 3.912in between magnets to make the 76.59in circumference. Is this right or am I missing some basic math?? It's been awile for me. Thanks for getting me thinking about this.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 03:37:32 PM by Miller Time »

Miller Time

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2009, 03:50:41 PM »
Sorry about that somehow figured area of circle instead of circumference ( Diameter * Pi) Got it now. Thanks:-)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 03:50:41 PM by Miller Time »

wdyasq

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2009, 03:54:01 PM »
Miller Time,


I have a rough time reading your poor English but let me try here. CIRCUMFERENCE, the distance around a circular object is PiD or 2PiR  with D meaning diameter and R meaning radius. AREA is PiR Squared or PiD Squared/4, same nomenclature.


Ron

« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 03:54:01 PM by wdyasq »
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Miller Time

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 04:03:20 PM »
This is all great advice and I will use it. However, I think I'm going to put these magnets on the back burner (Not literally)and buy the 1x2x1/4 magnets so I can create the 10 foot windmill the way it is supposed to be for my first try and then make an experiment alternator with 8" discs and 6 coils to find out more about these mags. Thank You.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 04:03:20 PM by Miller Time »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2009, 04:23:32 PM »
Folks here are always happy to see someone following a tried and true design. Are those magnets supposed to be 1/4" or 1/2"?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 04:23:32 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

Miller Time

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Re: Magnet size vs Rotor size
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2009, 04:32:21 PM »
Yes, 1/2 inch my bad. I'll put up more postings as I go on with project.  Sure I'll need more help so thanks again.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 04:32:21 PM by Miller Time »