Author Topic: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill  (Read 3816 times)

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(unknown)

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Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« on: January 22, 2010, 10:00:46 AM »
Has anyone measured the torque output on their windmills and force required to spin the stator? I was reading about the 17' windmill so i thought that would be a good frame of reference. I was just thinking about different ideas like putting multiple stators on one windmill and gearing.


Thanks form your insight,

Andy

   

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 10:00:46 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 11:02:57 AM »
It's a bit unusual to spin the stator!


If you take full load power and assume it comes at 40% efficiency you will be close, so perhaps you are looking at 10kW in. If you know the speed at full load you can easily calculate torque.


Somewhere in the region of 230 lb ft if I have got it right.


Flux

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:02:57 AM by Flux »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 11:19:04 AM »
I think the most simple way, without some type of dynamometer, is to calculate usable torque.  Use the formula:

hp = torque x rpm / 5252

and therefore:

torque (in lb-ft) = hp * 5252 / rpm


The electric horsepower possible for a given rotor size can be estimated by using:

watts / ( .00508 x windspeed^3 x turbine efficiency ) = (rotor swept area)

1 hp = 745.7 watts


The windspeed is in mph and the typical well-built turbine will be around 30% efficient (.3 in the formula).  An excellent performing wind turbine will maybe approach 32% efficient.


Note that this will only give you an approximation of usable torque, not actual shaft torque at the turbine mainshaft.


In a generator, you don't actually spin the stator - it's stationary and the rotor that carries the magnetic field is what requires the torque to spin it.  If, for some odd reason, you'd need to know the torque required to spin the generator at a given speed, that would be more complicated.  One way I can think of is to run an engine, that's properly matched to the maximum generator output, on a dyno and map its hp and torque curves.  Then run the generator with the same engine, and using the dyno data from that engine, calculate the actual shaft torque required to run the generator.


But again, the torque required to turn the generator can be calculated fairly closely by using its electrical output in watts, then adding in estimated losses in heat, which can vary by generator design.  Using the calculated method will give you a fairly close approximation of the actual shaft torque required to run it, and therefore engine or turbine shaft horsepower (which is always more than the electric hp generated) required to the spin the generator.


The only way I can think of to measure the torque exactly and accurately, is with a dynamometer.  I don't know of anybody who makes one for a wind turbine - at least I've never seen one.

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Chris

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:19:04 AM by ChrisOlson »

SparWeb

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 11:26:15 AM »
I get the same result with my calc's, too.


Some extra consideration should be given to the effect of flipping a "shorting" switch to brake the turbine.  The rush of current (probably hundreds of amperes) even if it's only for just a moment, is a strong pulse to the stator mounting structure.  Count on that being many times the torque that you would have at full power.


Stacking the stators also provokes the question of "overhang".  The effect can be minor, but sometimes missing the details leaves you with problems like wear on the yawing tubes, wear on the bearings, etc.  The longer separation between blades and hub mount allows more motion unless the structure is stiffened.  A little deformation that didn't cause a problem before will be magnified by the longer lever now.  Is it enough to matter compared to the amount of air gap that allows this much movement?  I don't really know but the anecdotal evidences says that it's important.


Some care in construction will deal with all of these issues.  The broader question of why you want dual stators... or gearing...  I'd need to know more to suggest anything.  And you've piqued my curiosity!


I have done some PM-motor-conversions and tested them for output power by driving them with a lathe myself.  If that's of interest to you I can dig up the link to the forum postings.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:26:15 AM by SparWeb »
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Mr Mom

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 11:30:08 AM »
Hi,

   Is there a formula around to determine torque at the blade hub given swept area and wind speed? I am wondering how hard it is to accurately calculate the forces involved in turning a homemade generator without actually building one and testing.  


 Do you think a 17' windmill could handle 2 stator assemblies or one that is geared say to 1:3?

   Just trying to get some good starting point down on the numbers...


Thanks

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:30:08 AM by Mr Mom »

Mr Mom

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 11:31:34 AM »
Just saw the posts below..
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:31:34 AM by Mr Mom »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 11:52:46 AM »
Assuming a TSR of 6, 275 rpm @ 28 mph wind and 10 kW at the shaft, I come up with 256 lb-ft of torque.  So we're right in the same ballpark.

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Chris
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:52:46 AM by ChrisOlson »

wooferhound

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 05:03:34 PM »
Adding a second stator and magnets to the same shaft will double the output, but it also double the magnetic drag created when it is producing power making it hard to start if you try to gear it up.


If you took all the magnets, wire and steel that it would take to make 2 generators on the same shaft, and used them to make 1 generator, you would end up with a machine that makes 4 times the power.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/12/19/174541/15

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/9/16/85430/5911

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/4/12/185439/597

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/6/26/124229/785

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/4/5/162915/1327

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/5/24/154345/840

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/7/14/442/09914

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/12/9/4162/48929

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/4/18/103424/544

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/10/2/203758/472


I think everybody comes up with this dual stator before they learn better.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 05:03:34 PM by wooferhound »

Perry1

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Re: Torque questions on 17 foot windmill
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2010, 03:40:35 AM »
Chris, you are correct on all points. The dyno method usually used that you have not heard of it called a Prony brake, or a de Prony brake. Invented way back when. They are still used today and a Google search will explain them. In fact some of the more steadfast on this board have built them. I have not. I have seen versions that are both of the two scale and the lever arm variety. Both come down to a torque vs. rpm power calculation. Simple in concept but a little harder to pull off in reality.


Seems like hi tech stuff but guys used to follow steam engine and tractor manufactures around with a portable de Prony brake to prove their 'horsepower'. Ohhhh, look at me, I sound like an old smart person!


Perry

« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 03:40:35 AM by Perry1 »