Author Topic: Creating larger wind generators?  (Read 977 times)

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TheSmith

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Creating larger wind generators?
« on: October 14, 2005, 07:30:51 AM »
Firstly,let me say that I greatly admire the ingenuity of the folks creating alternative energy sources here. I'm moving down near the Columbia river in Washington state in the spring. The fellow who's property I will be helping with says he is up on a hill-with pretty regular and steady winds.


 Now I will be setting up a shop there,with a mind to saving up some cash to invest in my own property-so I want to conserve on outside expenses as much as possible. I do a variety of metalwork-and will also be learning to work with fiberglass for other projects (specifically,aquaponics)


 The place is already set up on the grid-so my priorities are not so much in charging up battery bank to supply power-as I am in a larger generator, or series of generators to feed power back into the grid. In other words,I want to "turn the meter backwards". Now,I have looked around and found other sites that sell ready made alternators. They range anywhere from 100 to as much as four hundred bucks a piece,(mostly used and reconditioned) Looking at the home made expoxy cased stators and magnet rotors gives me an idea that one could perhaps stack them. Will this have any detrimental effects or disruptions on the magnetic flux and outputs?


 It seems like a big waste of time to try to make an alternator-when I can just buy one ready-made that will hold up under torque and shocks better. (as in the more standard setup with a seprate shaft for the prop,and then up the speed with some simple gearing at the alternator input shaft)


 There is also the matter of the cost of thicker cabling to reduce line losses. Is it better to use a higher dc output,and convert to ac only at the point at which I am feeding back into the grid?


 And lastly- I have an amount of machinist training,and a few simply machines,lathe,mill,drill press,etc.....Are there any simple plans out there for how to build a prop you can actually set up to feather automatically, to stabilize the output under varying wind speeds? The winds there peak in the afternoon, at around 3 pm. I think it would be a shame to have to shut down the wind farm just when it had the most energy input coming through it.


 Thanks in advance for any useful advice.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 07:30:51 AM by (unknown) »

DanG

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Re: Creating larger wind generators?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2005, 03:08:44 AM »
Letsee if I can add some insight to your statements & answer a one or two of your questions correctly...


Selling energy means jumping through regulatory hoops that cost huge amounts money; pre-made 'turnkey' systems require professional installation, you won't be able to build the least bit of it and pass the certification processes required. Usually will not break even for 20+ years if at all. Reducing usage of the power grid is more easily obtainable - heating or pumping water, area lighting, etc.. Aquaponics has many areas you can utilize wind energy in.


There is nothing wrong with bypassing a full battery bank & 'shutting down' a windmill, that is the indication you're doing very well, though dumping excess power into a usefull tasks takes extra work and thought.


And 'furling' is form of feathering, a mill w/ the offset tail holds output to a predetermined level, the mill continues generating while allowing the unwanted portion of strong winds to be bypassed by rotating the swept discs plane to reduce surface area. It's when truly damaging winds are expected or suffering equipment failure on the ground that one would short the windings and take the mill totally offline.


Automotive alternators aren't designed for constant duty. 8760 hours in a year and even 2 hours driving per day equals 12 years. Auto alternators bearings aren't designed for any thrust or lateral loads the way trailer or FWD bearings and spindles are. A true alternator requires brushes which often won't last 6 months constant duty. The dual mag - single stator design is affordable, robust, long lived, and its purpose-built stator makes for easy set-up for different battery banks. If you really want to buy premade There has been a few 'Dan Builts' on eBay, then its just the expensive tower portion of the project you need to finese : )

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 03:08:44 AM by DanG »

TheSmith

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Re: Creating larger wind generators?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2005, 04:58:19 AM »
The units I was speaking of seem to be actual generator motors.


I found them here: http://eduhosting.org/wgss/wsgprice.html ..Long term,it looks like it's easier to just go make some other stuff I'm good at doing,and buy a pro unit.


Which would leave only the prop and shafting to build. As far as a grid kit-I think he says on his site that those can be supplied in parts as well-and you just hire a contractor to do the installation. (bypassing a lot of the hoops)  And I fully intend to make use of the rebates the feds are offering, to offset these costs. They are only giving them for two or three years,so there's no time to waste on taking advantage of the savings. As far as the towers go,I'm not sure that I really trust a guyed "tilt up" sort. I'm more interested in a more massive lattice tower, mounted into a heavy concrete base. I have plenty of tools and skill to build this sort of thing,it's only angle and flat iron. I'm going to build a "toy unit" (probably with a smaller brushless alternator,putting out 12 vdc) before I move,a scaled down model.


 This will have a set of 3/8 inch thick steel plates mounted though the center of the lattice ,about half way up. They will be at a 45 degree angle,with a shaft from a gearbox mounted through them,and locking lugs to force them together solidly at the end of the pivot. So,to install the unit on top,and do any maintanence,you use the gear motor attached to the box ,and the tower swings down and around on it's pivot,bringing the unit easily down to ground level without a lot of histrionics. All you do is flip a switch.


 And with four or five hundred pounds of concrete pad for a base in the heavier duty unit-it's not going anywhere. While I do appreciate the value of simplicity in a home brewed unit-there's only so much wattage you can get out of one. There's got to be a break point at which you are not investing hundreds of hours, just to produce 20 kwh a day.


 I've already looked into solar,and that's not very good in a dark climate like Washington-so the most efficient wind power is going to have to do instead.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 04:58:19 AM by TheSmith »

wdyasq

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I wish you would
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2005, 07:46:10 AM »
TheSmith,


I wish you would buy one of those units and give us a full and honest report. Personally, I think he is using the wrong motors for what can be done and I believe he is as honest as a politician.


His estimates of power from 6' and 7' blades are far more that the honest folks I know are reporting.  


The most simple and affordable 'Grid-tie' is  3ph motor spun at about 10% over power. The 1750rpm motors will need to be spun to 1960rpm to produce power.  A 6' prop will have a tipspeed of 380MPH turning that fast.  It your proposed prop has a tipspeed ratio of 10, you will start producing power at just below 40MPH wind.


But, at you seem to have it all figured out, go for it. I think you will find the 400-500# for a base is low by a factor of 10 or so.


I really wish you the best on this project.  I do hope you keep records and have the testocular fortitude to admit and docuument any mistakes you might have made.  I also think you should have honest comments on your supplier.  If he is really getting teh extreme amounts of power and his turbine blades exceed the output all the scientists, commercial builders and expirementers have been able to produce over the last 75 years, the world needs to know. Those of us who are admately opposed to grid-tie because of the obsticals we have seen others hve to contend with need to know how to deal with the  utilities and government regulatory boards. Being able to actuall collect money back from the government will be icecream on the cake.


I commend you for doing work like this.


Ron

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 07:46:10 AM by wdyasq »
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DanB

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Re: Creating larger wind generators?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2005, 10:18:21 AM »
Hi - I'll comment on some of your thoughts...


 "Now I will be setting up a shop there,with a mind to saving up some cash to invest in my own property-so I want to conserve on outside expenses as much as possible."


You'll not likely generate your own power for less than you can buy it from the grid.  People need to realize that.  You can save money if you build your own system vs buy one - but even then, cost/KWH will likely be more for power you generate yourself - if for no other reason, the cost of batteries.  I believe that large grid tie wind turbines can start being cost effective especially in states that subsidize that sort of project.


 "The place is already set up on the grid-so my priorities are not so much in charging up battery bank to supply power-as I am in a larger generator, or series of generators to feed power back into the grid. In other words,I want to "turn the meter backwards"."


Probably an induction motor as is described in another comment is the way to go, but keep in mind, it'll have to be geared way up  - as is described in the other comment.  And still, I doubt that once you count your time, and the cost of it all - that you'll really save much money.  In your situation - since you have the grid, it makes sense to do this for fun, but the payoff will be a very long term thing I expect.


 "Now,I have looked around and found other sites that sell ready made alternators. They range anywhere from 100 to as much as four hundred bucks a piece,(mostly used and reconditioned)"


What I see available on other sites is usually very small stuff - usually grossly over rated.  To be honest, I don't see much out there that's really suitable for a decent sized wind turbine that will produce usable amounts of power and hold up over the course of years.  Ametek tape drive motors are nice sometimes (depending on the model) for 50 - 100 watt machines with 3 - 5' props, and such machines might be handy on boats or cabins where we're worried about a light and a radio.  But..  they don't hold up that well.  In my experience, the brushes will usually fail in a year or less - the bearings in a year or two.  The magnets tend to come loose sometimes.  They are a fun/cheap way to get into all this, but not a very good machine in my opinion.


 "Looking at the home made expoxy cased stators and magnet rotors gives me an idea that one could perhaps stack them. Will this have any detrimental effects or disruptions on the magnetic flux and outputs?"


Sure, you could stack them.  I prefer to make them larger in diameter - I'd not be stacking them untill diameter became a problem because it's poor use of materials.


 "It seems like a big waste of time to try to make an alternator-when I can just buy one ready-made that will hold up under torque and shocks better. (as in the more standard setup with a seprate shaft for the prop,and then up the speed with some simple gearing at the alternator input shaft)"


Yes, it would be a waste of time if you could buy one ;~)

I've seen whats out there and I dont believe you can to be honest.  With a wind turbine, we need an alternator that produces the right amount of power at the right speeds.  I dont think mounting blades to a shaft is nearly as strong as mounting it to studs so I prefer not to have a shaft, although it is workable.  If you like 'ready made' stuff - I would study what zubbly has done with motor conversions.  Thats good stuff there.


 "There is also the matter of the cost of thicker cabling to reduce line losses. Is it better to use a higher dc output,and convert to ac only at the point at which I am feeding back into the grid?"


You'll either charge batteries and grid tie that (a bit expensive but nice in that you have backup power) or directly grid tie with an induction motor I expect.  Higher voltage is usually nice.


 "Are there any simple plans out there for how to build a prop you can actually set up to feather automatically, to stabilize the output under varying wind speeds? "


No - not that I know of.  It's not a simple problem. Machines with variable pitch blades tend to be larger, more complicated -and expensive.  The gravity tail furling system that many of us use is nice/simple and reliable and basicly achieves the same ends.


"The units I was speaking of seem to be actual generator motors.


I found them here: http://eduhosting.org/wgss/wsgprice.html ..Long term,it looks like it's easier to just go make some other stuff I'm good at doing,and buy a pro unit."


The smaller ones they're selling are ametek tape drive motors, from old computer main frame tape drives,   again - they're nice for 50  -100 watt machines and occasionally  one might see twice that from them, but they're not efficient (even the big ones) over 100 watts.  Try driving one of those with an engine sometime and see what happens after about 10 min @ over 100 watts output (they get too hot to touch).


The other motors offered there are not intended for use as generators at all.  The 3 phase motor appears to be an induction motor and would probably work for a small grid tie machine if you could gear it Way up, but for battery charging I cannot imagine that it'd be workable.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  

But that site is really full of hype and misinformation my opinion.  The prices on some things are fair and I expect his blades mounted to the ametek motors do make nice little wind turbines, but some of the other stuff there I would disagree with.


"As far as the towers go,I'm not sure that I really trust a guyed "tilt up" sort. I'm more interested in a more massive lattice tower, mounted into a heavy concrete base. I have plenty of tools and skill to build this sort of thing,it's only angle and flat iron. I'm going to build a "toy unit" (probably with a smaller brushless alternator,putting out 12 vdc) before I move,a scaled down model."


Guyed tilt up towers are fine, you don't have to climb them and they require a lot less materials.


 This will have a set of 3/8 inch thick steel plates mounted though the center of the lattice ,about half way up. They will be at a 45 degree angle,with a shaft from a gearbox mounted through them,and locking lugs to force them together solidly at the end of the pivot. So,to install the unit on top,and do any maintanence,you use the gear motor attached to the box ,and the tower swings down and around on it's pivot,bringing the unit easily down to ground level without a lot of histrionics. All you do is flip a switch.


 "And with four or five hundred pounds of concrete pad for a base in the heavier duty unit-it's not going anywhere."


Hmm...  I dont think four or five hundred pounds of concrete under a free standing tower will do you much good.  I bet $5 it'll tip over ;-)


 "While I do appreciate the value of simplicity in a home brewed unit-there's only so much wattage you can get out of one. There's got to be a break point at which you are not investing hundreds of hours, just to produce 20 kwh a day."


Claims on that website about 20KWH/day and powering a family home with 'kids' with an induction motor mounted to a 7' blade are absurd in my opinion.


 "I've already looked into solar,and that's not very good in a dark climate like Washington-so the most efficient wind power is going to have to do instead."


Yes, I expect in your area windpower is probably your best bet.  You should do your research - read some good books, look at some good websites.  Avoid 'hype' - there is about as much hype and misinformation out there in the windpower world as there is in the perpetual motion world.  If you're serious about getting into it - then time reading is well spent.  I would look at Windpower Workshop by Hugh Piggott, checkout Paul Gipes books.  Look at our 'wind' page and follow through some of the links.  DanF's recent articles there are worth reading: http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 10:18:21 AM by DanB »
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TheSmith

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Re: I wish you would
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2005, 11:29:14 AM »
I came here becuase I have sketchy information at best. And I hate to spend money on junk-and I had to wonder about the site I quoted. The industrial wind generators are enormous monsters. Damned things are as big as a house. I guess I am just trying to distill down the best overall options before proceeding with this project.


 I tend to be a production guy,so my goal is to get things puzzed out first-do the engineering and jiggs to produce parts. Of course,you don't want to invest a huge amount into that until you can field test a few experimental units. For instance, the comment on the tower anchor of another poster,that it was too small an estimate.  The soil on the site is rock and clay-and I now think I'm going to basically have to sink pilings,tied onto the slab to have enough resistance to the wind force up top.


 And I plan to document everything as I go. Including setting up one of my older pc's to an anemometer wind direction meter-and temperature sensor. I need to be able to record weather patterns over a few years time, to see what the potential of the area is in general. The site may well prove not to be optimal to property I wish to buy and set up on.


 Mistakes are a part of any experiemntation and r&d. I have no doubt that I will make any. I'll happily admit what they are-since they are all part of the learning experience.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 11:29:14 AM by TheSmith »

DanB

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Re: I wish you would
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2005, 01:15:55 PM »
You should have a good time with it all.  Before you spend much time, or money - you'd do real well (if your planning to build your own windpower system) to checkout 'Windpower Workshop'.  It discusses pros and cons of many designs and offers up good information about 'why' we build the way we do, and what you can expect from a windpower system of a given size.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 01:15:55 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Drives

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Re: Creating larger wind generators?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2005, 05:48:34 PM »
DanB:


Those were well written comments.  You should bookmark this link in the FAQ's for all the new people who are bitten by the "Wind Power Bug".  Thanks.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 05:48:34 PM by Drives »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Creating larger wind generators?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2005, 07:19:09 PM »
Currently alternative energy systems are cost-effective only where there is an excessively high cost to running grid power - either because the load is small for a grid hookup (such as illuminated roadsigns or lawn lighting) or where the cost to run a grid hookup is excessive (new construction at remote locations).


This may change if the cost of grid power rises drastically (possible) or the cost of A.E. equipment drops (likely only for solar panels).


Additional factors may make it practical in some other sites.  Examples:


 - If grid power is too unreliable and a backup system is needed, you might chose to use the storage/inverter-charger part of an A.E. system as your UPS, rather than a purpose-built product.  In that case your capital costs for going full A.E. are the cost of the generation plus the difference in price A.E. UPS versus a regular one (more expensive inverter, more batteries).


 - If you are a hobbiest, the entertainment value of building your own may offset some or all of the costs.


 - If you see using renewable energy sources as a moral issue, the self-satisfaction and peace-of-mind may be of an offsetting payoff for you.


 - If you are planning to build or install A.E. equipment as part of your business, building your own in advance may pay off by giving you experience and a "showroom".

« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 07:19:09 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

nothing to lose

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Re: Creating larger wind generators?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2005, 11:43:48 AM »
Hmm, I think we are starting to see the Windgennies can be a good investment with a better than expected return that will save money on power bills over the cost of the equipment faster than most people think.


 Take for instance the Co-op for the other house,  $60 to join and the monthly meter charge alone I was told would be $15 per month, it was $10 but increasing about now. Told them to stick it and using my inverter and batteries instead :)


$15 X 12 months = $180 per year just to have a meter in the yard if you use no power, use power and you pay extra for that of course. So I got at least $180 per year ( first year add joining) $240 first year as money to invest in my own power.

So figuring it does not go up again grid power costs $240 first year, 9years x $180 = $1620, for ten years of NO POWER at all $1860.


Now I can see where $1860 for nothing is getting far to expensive already, don't forget that monthly charge will probably go up again durring that time.


How much power do we need to use then to make it worth paying that? Those rates are sure to increase alot also. So lets say I am using $50 a month now, 10 years that is $6,000 IF the rates don't go up, think we can go 10 without an increase?


$1860 for nothing + $6,000 for power used = $7860 minimum I would expect to spend for the next 10 years. Now what can I buy/build for that money?

 I like my Aims inverter fine, under $600 for 5k/10k surge

 A Dans E-bay wind gennie ready to fly, I think they were around $1,000 maybe, or build one or more myself.

 Still have over $6000 for charge controller and batteries.

T105 I can get $73 new (probably alot cheaper elsewhere though) so 40 of those are $2,920 at 8,000 amps at 6v = 48,000 watts.

 Still got over $3,000 to play with, wires, tower, more batteries, maybe a small sinewave inverter or a small generator and cheap RE fuel for it. :)


With rates increasing soon if things keep going as they are, I can see the pay backs comming much faster than most people figure. And then you don't have to worry about the grid outages or brown outs either from crappy co-ops like the one this house is on for now.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2005, 11:43:48 AM by nothing to lose »