Author Topic: water storage and systerns?  (Read 2872 times)

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picmacmillan

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water storage and systerns?
« on: January 03, 2006, 10:24:46 PM »
i am in a dilema with some river front property i own and year round water(especially in the winter), supply. This camp is not used much in the winter, and the climate can be below -40 degrees farenheit. I would like to ask anyone with experience, if holding water in a systern would create any health issues, or mould problems, or anything else that comes to mind if i were to build such a thing to provide water in the winter. I could bury a pipe into the river, but i dont think i could prevent it from freezing, due to the small amount of time we would spend there, and the fact that the place wouldnt be heated while we were gone. i was thinking maybe, i could pump enough water into a systern to last us while we were there, and then just drain the lines once we have enough in the systern.  any ideas would be appreciated ..pickster


mrs moose listening to bob seeger "Going To Katmandu" summer 2005. Crank it up!

       on montreal river




« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 10:24:46 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2006, 04:25:43 PM »
Pickster:


What is the distance from the river to the tank.

How deep the ground freezes.

Does the river freezes ?.


What is the height difference between tank and river ?.

Where is the tank located and winter protected ?.


What are going to use for water pumping ?.


Nando

« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 04:25:43 PM by Nando »

picmacmillan

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2006, 04:39:17 PM »
height from river to tank is 20', tank would be in house(or under), ground freezes 5' deep or more..river freezes over, but there is ice jams over 15' high.i was going to use my water pump, drill hole in ice with ice auger, fill systern, and empty pump when done?..sounds like alot of work just to wash the twins :) lol pickster
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 04:39:17 PM by picmacmillan »

maker of toys

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2006, 06:02:09 PM »
cisterns can become stagnate.  especially when filled with surface water.


to combat that possibility, three possibilities come to mind:



  1. drain the cistern when you leave-- as long as you're using up water and refilling the cistern on a semi-regular basis, you shouldn't have a problem; it's when the system sits that things get funky.
  2. provide some sort of aeration (run a recirculating pump through a nozzle- our old water system used a'pop-up' lawn sprinker suspended from the top of the tank.  A showerhead would do, too; or you could bubble air from the bottom.)  half-an-hour a couple of times a week (more or less, depending on the size of said cistern) ought to do.  there have been threads about doing this sort of thing here. . . one I remember but can't find concerned compressing air for pond aeration.
  3. shock the system periodically with chlorine bleach.  (Bleh!)


it helps to have a cistern that has low porosity. . .
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 06:02:09 PM by maker of toys »

wildbill hickup

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2006, 03:42:22 AM »
Hey pic, hows the ground water, are there any springs. A natural spring dug below the frostline will not freeze if covered. We get our share of 3-5 foot frost here in Northern Vermont. Water stays fresh too as it is constantly changed by the spring. Been on my place for 20 years 10'-12' spring concrete cover pipe buried to 5'+ has never frozen and never gone dry.


Just a thought

Wildbill

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 03:42:22 AM by wildbill hickup »

nothing to lose

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2006, 06:30:39 AM »
Hi Pickster.


I don't think I saw that Moose, geuss I missed one.


 I think you could do pretty good with a cistern out there. I've been around alot of them in the warmer states down here, for the most part people have not had much problem. Grand parents and some older friends had them most of their lifes in Ohio, all lived nice and healthy to a good old age. Men around 70 or so, women even older, I think Great grandma was about 100, grandma was in her 90's I think.

 I used a make shift one for a couple years before I had a well put in here, we never got sick, though we did not drink or cook with that water, we filled other jugs for consumable water.


I dought you would have any health problems unless it was because of the out of use time, the ones I know of were in constant daily use year round. Also filled with rain water or well water, not river. But I bet your river is better water than many wells anyway and also better than rain water in many areas too.


I would insulate it good to prevent freezing as much as posable. Stock tank heaters are cheap (here) and if you have power for it I would put one of those in the cistern also.

 Maybe use the solar pannels you built or build a genny for out there, a few batteries and you could power a stock tank heater enough to prevent freezing.

 When you were at Harbor Freight did you see the stainless steel 12V water pump? I think they are about $50, would probably be good for the cistern pump and not have to have a genny running, but you would still need the larger pump for the lift from the river to the cistern.


Something that should work good for you and cheap too, I did this before I had a well here and I was hauling in water from other places in cleaned out junk hot water tanks in the back of a 1 ton box van. Several years! Your river water is better than some well water I hauled!


Buy yourself a swimming pool for at the river :)

No joke, I used one of those 2' or 3' high ones with plastic sides and rubber bottom, not sure how big around. You can get alot of different sizes so get one that holds the volume of water you want to store. Back in those days we had alot of winter days at 20f and some down to -5f, when those pools froze they did not break. Although with -40 they may get brittle, but they should be ok since you won't be messing with them if they get that cold. Warm water will keep the pool warm, and it will probably be empty if your letting it get that cold.


I think I paid around $10 then. Mine just sat out in the yard, I covered the top with black plastic to keep it clean and keep light out, duct taped it around the sides. Stuff likes to grow in light better than the dark. You would probably want to build an insulated box around it up there and maybe use the tank heater sometimes also. Being the fexible type you fold or roll up and open top, when empty it would be easy to clean out, wipe it out with a bleach rag and rinse well. I would want to do that after it sat empty for a long period if it had been warm. Kills any germs and bacteria growing in it. Very easy to just drop in a pipe or hose for the pump and I used duct tape to seal around mine. I had a second pipe to fill it with and I left that open so I would not create a vacume when pumping out the water, just put a filter over it. These worked very well for me winter and summer, though I did melt the first one on a hot sunny summer day in direct sunlight. Half or less full of water and covered with black plastic it got so hot the top of the sides bent all goofey out of shape. Solar heated water in summer?

 For filling the pool or other type cisterns, $6 for a stock tank waterer. It is plastic with a float, mount to side of pool connect hose turn on water, when the pool is full the float shuts off the water from the hose. This may be good to have, I had several hot water tanks piped together and gravity feed into pool when hauling water, this stopped me from over filling my pool and running out extra water. I just connected the hose, opened the valve and walked away, let gravity fill the pool.

 Later I used it on my hog water tanks after I got a well, they shut off good even with presure! For filling yours up in the winter you won't want water over flowing everywhere making lots of ice, and you may not want to stand around watching it constantly either in -10 or below. It may be nice to have one in case the pump runs  a few minutes too long.


Another tank I used and still do is a 220 gallon white plastic tank, I think it would freeze and bust up there though and they aren't cheap!


Good unsented CLOROX bleach, not generic, added to the water once in a while should keep it from growing anything and kill any bacteria that may be in the river water. You don't need alot! Been many years, but I think it was less than a cup for over 100gal of water. Maybe only 1/4 cup? All I remember was it was very little. Should be able to look it up online somewhere. The city water guy told me the ratio when I needed to do that but I forgot now. After you bleach the water you can leave the tank open and the bleach smell will evaporate. Not sure if all the bleach evaporates ( I think it does) but at least the smell does for sure. You don't need alot like a swimming pool, your not going to be swimming or bathing in it :)

Alot of people want to use way too much bleach, thinking of swimming pools I geuss.

 Also some generics have extra garbage in them, so you want pure clorax.


For drinking and cooking water you won't need nearly as much, It might be good if you   had maybe a 35gal barrel if you have room in the cabin for it. You could do a siphon or maybe build a rack so it is overhead, build in shelfs or sink under it. Kinda like Clydes shower but indoors and make use of the area under it so space is not wasted.


 How much water are you wanting? It is a pain to flush the sediment out, normally the only thing wrong with the hot water tanks I get free or $3. Then I bleach them also.

When I hauled water I had the tanks piped together at the bottom and a shutoff valve at the end of the pipe where I would connect the hose at the house to fill the pool. Water seeks it's own level and with all the tanks piped together I could fill one tank and that filled them all, I left the top pipe nipple uncapped on all the tanks.

 If you were to do similair you could run a pump on the end of the bottom pipe and get a feed from all tanks at once. This would not take up too much room indoors along a wall. Maybe 2-3' round tanks about 5' tall, 4 along a wall, 150-200gal of water storage. Or you could lay 35gal barrels on their sides stacked high in a rack, run a pipe from the top one to the one under it connecting them each to the next one down. Fill the top one and they all fill, just series them :)

 If you want more water than you can stack barrels high, make 2 series stacks and paralel them at the bottom pipe, leave both stacks with an open hole at top to prevent vacum when draining. :)

 $6 each here for 35gal plastic barrels, 10/$60 and alittle pipe and few fittings for 350gal storage, plus build a rack for them.


 Again we don't have the severe cold here you have there but I have left those barrels in the yard full of water all winter (when we did have cold winters) and never broke a barrel here yet, the pipe would break before the barrels I am sure, and that would make a big mess. But they would be easy to drain if your not using them for extended times.


 A nice thing about tanks of water indoors, they will warm to room tempature eventually, if you leave for awhile and have no fire they will radiate that heat back into the cabin helping it stay warm longer.


We have been having too warm of winters, yesterday and today was like spring time. So I have not built the solar heaters I was going to build, it just hasn't been cold much to need them. We used to have cold winters and snow, 1 small snow so far 1 day, a bit before Christmas. I been making a workshop out of the old trailer house I use for storage, the one we lived in when I hauled water. The well is up at house so I have to run a water hose to the shop several hundred feet (maybe 300' or more). I was going to use the 35gal barrels in the shop for water storage and heat storage like I mentioned, but I was going to stand them up right like normal and build a workbench over mine. Then put a solar heater outside at ground level and let the heat rise up into the trailer and around the barrels durring the day. Depending on the amount of sun this would warm the barrels of water and the trailer some. Being the solar heater would be below the floor level of the trailer I should not have reverse convection when things cool at night, no reason for warm air to flow downwards or cold air to rise. Barrels of water would also warm when I have a wood burner fired up for heat in the shop, then keep it warm longer over night, and also warmed water for use.

 If your cabin/house is on piers and you get good sun that may be an idea to think along with the water storage. It would have worked for me, but like today I was thinking about opening the house door and turning on the fan, did not need extra heat today. Storing a bit of heat in water tanks would have been nice, 4am-7am only about 60F in the house, no need to build a fire since the place will warm up in a bit when the sun pops out. 350gal of water would probably kept the house around 65F over night maybe?

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 06:30:39 AM by nothing to lose »

picmacmillan

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2006, 07:29:50 AM »
thanks guys..lots of good ideas that i hadnt thought of...maybe there is spring water there now that i think of it..now i have to find somebody to witch me a well :)  thats a whole other issue ;)  is witching real or not ??  lol i seen it done! thanks again....pickster
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 07:29:50 AM by picmacmillan »

IntegEner

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2006, 07:51:46 AM »
Sounds familiar and similar to my years in Pine City, Minnesota near the Snake River. I quickly learned to differentiate between water for general purposes (from a shallow well or the river and kept inside near the wood stove in the clean 20 gallon covered plastic refuse bins where it settled out nicely) and water for drinking (purchased from the reverse osmosis tap in the local grocery store, which did good business with it). I still buy my drinking water this way stored in gallon jugs on the countertop in the kitchen even up to today.


The propane people expressed ill-will toward me many a time for my habit of heating throughout the down to -40 degree Fahrenheit (also Centigrade) winters there with nothing but the wood I collected (with much time and effort) from the woods in back (never cutting more than the dead trees there) while my propane tank remained half filled and unused throughout.


On one especially cold day I couldn't find any but just a small opening in the ice over the river at the rapids and filled my plastic bucket there before the long trek back to my residence. I heard the usual two toned whistle of the little bird that overwinters in most of Minnesota and out of curiosity went to try to see him to identify him. Later I found these are the black capped chickadees, such a hardy small bird. When I got back, my bucket had completely frozen top to bottom. Such is life where energy for heating is such a necessity.


Anthony C.

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www.integener.com

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 07:51:46 AM by IntegEner »

go4it

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2006, 08:17:41 AM »
Why not put a submersible pump in the river.  Take our the checkvalve so that the water would drain back into the river when the pump stopped.  Put a short length of heat tape where the the pipe could freeze at the ice level.  Then put an air relief valve in the plumbing system near the pressure tank.  When the pressure drops the pump comes on and the air in the line goes out the air relief valve, when the water gets there it starts to flow into the pressure tank.  It works just like it would in the warm weather and you shouldn't notice a real significant pressure drop.  If you just wanted to use it to fill a holding tank then you wouldn't need a very big pump and you could use a small supply line.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 08:17:41 AM by go4it »

wildbill hickup

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2006, 08:35:41 AM »
Hi again Pic,


Never believed in dowsing myself til a contractor I worked for had me try it myself. He cut me a fresh apple branch 'Y' of course and set me up perpendicular to a spring he new of(I had no idea where it was) He told me to close my eyes and pointed me in the right direction. It's a little difficult to discribe how to hold the ends of the stick, but I'm sure that when you find someone they will be glad to show you(most simply love to show off their magic)or go to a dowsing site and they usually will have a pictue. Anyway sure enough as I got closer to the spring the stick started to pull down (you just let it do what it wants) it was almost vertical when I was over the spring. It really seemed to work, I've done it many times since and always found water. Legend has it that the distance you travel from the time you feel the first tug to when the stick is vertical gives you the approx depth of the water. I've come pretty close in most instances but I wouldn't take that a an exact measuremnet.


Of course on a less spooky note, you could just look for a springs coming out of the ground even a wet spot durring the dry months may also indicate a spring. It's usually pretty easy to tell a spring from ground water once you start digging. The muddy water (from digging) in a spring will clear very quickly if left alone for a few minutes. Standing gound water will stay cloudy for quite awhile. In a good strong spring if you watch it closely, you can even see the clear water stream in the muddy water. This is getting kind of long so if you want to discuss this more info email me. I'm no expert but I'll share what I have found out over the years.


Wildbill

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 08:35:41 AM by wildbill hickup »

Shadow

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2006, 08:45:05 AM »
I could see putting in a submersible as a real challenge. It would have to be out fairly deep to keep below freezing range. It would have to be suspended off bottom, unless it was a very rocky bottom. Otherwise I could vision it sinking in the mud.Then I could see problems with ice flows during break up in the spring.I guess all this comes down to whether you left the pump in all the time, or dropped it in filled your cistern  and removed it again.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 08:45:05 AM by Shadow »

wpowokal

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2006, 09:21:42 AM »
Very real although "witch" is not an apropriate word, I prefer dowsing, I have been a practicing  dowser for some 19+ years & I drilled my own sites.


Although finding a spring is no challenge for a dowser, a few observations can reveal a suitable soak/spring site, Dowsing is more about deep water.


Allan down under

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 09:21:42 AM by wpowokal »
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BigBreaker

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2006, 11:44:31 AM »
A UV flourescent is good for keeping things fresh too.  Very few, if any, microbes can tolerate UV light.  You could leave it on for a half hour everyday on a timer.  It wouldn't cost much and wouldn't add any chemicals to the water either.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 11:44:31 AM by BigBreaker »

picmacmillan

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2006, 12:34:07 PM »
submersable pump may be workable..it is a mud bottom, but if i could dig away the shore a bit and bury the pipe below freezing depths, then maybe with a check valve like suggested might be an option ...mmmm something to ponder...thanks :) pickster
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 12:34:07 PM by picmacmillan »

wildbill hickup

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2006, 12:34:11 PM »
Allen, you'll notice I used the correct term, thank you very much!!! ;->
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 12:34:11 PM by wildbill hickup »

nothing to lose

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2006, 08:10:53 PM »
I'd like to know more on that if you know about it!


I know there are UV purifiers, here in the states I understand a UV purifier will kill about everything that water contains (germs bacteria) that could cause harm except for some Colorado deer or mouse dropping bateria. When I tried to find UV purifiers years ago for my systems they were hard to find and very costly for the ones I did find. Been at least 6 years since I looked though. Actually before I even had internet here, however long that was.

 Always wondered, a normal UV blacklight, would that work the same in a tank? I have 12V UV cold cathodes and also UV LEDS. Will these work? If so a great cheap low power no chemical purifier. Just need a filter then for any solid particals in the water.

 I could easily install the UV LEDS along a length of pipe or even in a storage tank.


What's the opinion on this?


If anyone has contaminted wter to test, I can get the UV cold cathodes (12V) for a few bucks, LEDS maybe 50 cents, US dollars. It would be nice to test bad water, then purifie it with these and see of it actually works for certain.


I had a friend that was working for the city water and sewer department but I think he got a different job now. I live out of town in the country. Well and septic systems.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 08:10:53 PM by nothing to lose »

nothing to lose

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2006, 08:23:19 PM »
Tons of good info in this thread for this.


I was wondering, are you building a new place, or upgrading the other water system we used last summer at the cabin. Does not really matter I geuss, but curious, and might open more options if your building that new cabin/house.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 08:23:19 PM by nothing to lose »

ghurd

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2006, 10:53:17 AM »
I have seen a pole pounded into the bottom, pump tied to a pole 2' off the bottom.

G-
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 10:53:17 AM by ghurd »
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Clifford

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2006, 08:39:09 PM »
I've heard that you can add a bit of bleach to your water...  It really isn't supposed to take much to kill anything that would otherwise grow in it, and it won't be enough to hurt you, maybe a tablespoon / 100 gallons or something like that.  Somewhere you should find some more precise measurements.


If you can pump and filter your water when you need it, then it might not hurt to drain your system when not in use.


I've heard about circulating water systems to keep them from freezing.  You can even use the Venturi effect to force branches to circulate, but not sure if you need to add a little heat too.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 08:39:09 PM by Clifford »

elvin1949

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Re: water storage and systerns?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2006, 06:00:31 AM »
for bleach   8 drops to the gallon

later

elvin
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 06:00:31 AM by elvin1949 »