Author Topic: eddie currents  (Read 3707 times)

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fanman

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eddie currents
« on: January 26, 2006, 10:14:27 PM »
hello fellas

fanman here i just want to know what exactly eddie currents are, how there developed,how to overcome them,and why they are so bad, ive heard alot of stuff about these things and have even read a bunch about them, but i dont really understand the whole thing, ive got my magnets today for my axial flux machine and im just trying to put this together the best way possible, my machine is going to be high voltage 120 volt, is there any special considerations i should be aware of,or any design considerations i should know of

  thanks everyone for all the help, i will be posting lots of pictures of my build soon stay tuned


thanks

fanman

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 10:14:27 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2006, 03:29:50 PM »
Whenever a magnet moves near a conductor a voltage is induced in it. If that is a wire, fine that is what you want, but if it is a solid metal conductor you will have trouble.


Even small voltages can give large currents in big lumps of metal with low resistance.


These currents cause heat and extract power from your driving source and waste energy.


At best they lower efficiency, at worst they cause serious heat and drag and may prevent start up and make the thing impossible to turn.


The things are avoided or reduced by making a high resistance path to the flow of current ( you can't stop the voltage)


This means that any iron circuits are made of thin sheets with nominal insulation between them and are arranged so that the flux passes along the sheets but currents have to flow across the insulated gaps.


With certain types of winding you can have trouble with eddies within the copper conductor if it is too thick and you have to use thinner insulated wires in parallel.


Originally called Foucault currents they are usually called eddy currents because of the similarity to eddies in water flow.


Your high voltage machine does not present special problems, you will be using thinner wire. If you use an iron core you still need to have it laminated.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 03:29:50 PM by Flux »

johnlm

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2006, 04:02:16 PM »
Flux,

I have a question for you about laminates.  Lets assume one had a motor conversion or a car alternator converted with PMs that at some point in time a magnet came lose while the armature was rotating and the magnet got dragged across the face of the laminates etching away some metal so that likely some or maybe all the laminate plates were elecrically shorted together on the face.  What effect would this have on the eddy current situation?  I suspect here would be some degradation of the laminates but possibly not as bad as if they were shorted at multiple points between laminates (meaning restacking laminates that may have alot of scratches on the flat sides that ajoin each other).  Since eddy currents are difficult to quantify Im not sure of how serious the effect would be in the first part of the question with the stator pole faces damaged.  Any thoughts or experiences in this regard?


Johnlm

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 04:02:16 PM by johnlm »

craig110

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2006, 04:06:08 PM »


>With certain types of winding you can have trouble with eddies

>within the copper conductor if it is too thick...


Do you have any pointers to where I can learn more about what types of windings are likely to have eddy problems and what the maximum reasonable thicknesses are for those types of windings?  Thanks.


Craig

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 04:06:08 PM by craig110 »

terry5732

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2006, 04:10:44 PM »
Congratulations on choosing a reasonable voltage !

Besides the heated created, mentioned above, they produce an electromagnetic field exactly opposite (minus the heat) of the field that created them. That can be a serious drag. Look for the Mr Wizard type 'experiment' of dropping a neo down a copper pipe. In thin wire the perponderance of  current created is in line with the direction you want current to go. As you increase wire size you increase the percentage of these unwanted, wasteful currents. As a further bonus for having small wire size you have increased voltage which will decrease your resistance.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 04:10:44 PM by terry5732 »

wooferhound

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2006, 08:21:05 PM »
Eddy currants can be easy to understand.

Take a strong magnet and try to rub it across a sheet of aluminum or a copper pipe. You will feel the resistance to motion caused by eddy currents. Another example would be to drop a magnet down a piece of copper pipe. you will see how slowly the magnet falls through do to restance to motion. When I was building my dual rotor machine, and before I installed the stator, I would show my friends how cool it was to get voltage from a coil placed in the airgap. Then for a demonstration of eddy current braking, I would get the rotors spinning fast then place a sheet of aluminum into the airgap. This would stop the rotation almost instantly. Or I would have my friend spin the rotors while I placed the aluminum into the airgap. That way they could feel the resistance to motion directly for themselfs.


To eliminate eddy currents in a generator, you will want to keep the spinning magnetic field from reaching any metal except the coils. You can also have eddy currents in the coils themselfs. If the wire size is very large like 12 or 10 gauge or larger wire. The eddy currents begin to resist motion even without a load on your coils. You can keep this from happining if you wind your coil with multiple strands of wire that add up to the desired current carrying capacity of the larger wire that you had in mind.


They are called Eddy Currents because they are just like the swirling eddys in a flowing stream of water. The magnet passing a thick piece of metal creates swirling eddys of voltage in the metal. Thinner metals have less eddys because there is less room in there for the swirling motions of electricity.


That's about as simple as I can make it . . .

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 08:21:05 PM by wooferhound »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2006, 12:47:28 AM »
Remember those "lines of force" you always see in diagrams of magnetic fields.  They're a simplification, but imagine for the moment they're discrete entities.


Imagine one of the lines penetrating a conductive hunk of metal, like the handle of a spoon.  Now move the line sideways and you get a circular current going around each of them.  This looks like an eddy in a stream.  (It also resists the motion of the field line - as if you were trying to stir thick grease.  Meanwhile the circulating current causes resistive heating in the metal.)


If you cut up your metal into thin plates and put a TINY bit of insulation between them (or just let them oxidize a bit), the currents can flow within the plates but has difficulty flowing from one to another.  Replace your solid hunk of magnetic metal with a stack of plates and it does just about as well as a solid hunk for carrying the magnetic field, but now the insulation between the layers can impeed the eddy currents.


There are three ways to orient them with respect to your moving magnetic field lines.


The first is to have the lines enter through the faces of the plates.  In this case the eddy currents circulate within the plate unhindered.  You might as well have left the metal in a solid lump.


The second is to have the lines enter through the edge of the stack, and move so they go at right angles, jumping from plate to plate.  This is better.  But it isn't ideal.  The moving field induces a voltage in the plate - at some fraction of a volt per inch of plate.  This adds up along the length of plate that is exposed to field moving in the same direction, eventually becoming large enough that it may drive a current from one plate to another through the very thin insulation or any defects in it.


The third is also to have the lines enter through the edge of the stack, but this time oriented so the field slides along the edges of the plates.  ("Here we go sliding down the razor blade of life." to quote Tom Lehrer.)  The voltage still adds up - but this time it's adding up across the thicknes of the plate rather than along its length.  Result:  a miniscule voltage that can't drive a significant current through even the thinnest insulation - but must drive it through many gaps, rather than back-and-forth through only a few.  So the eddy currents across the gaps are virtually nonexistend even if the insulation is truly rotten, and the major eddy currents are just those that circulate WITHIN the thin plate - again vanishingly small.


In the third orientation the eddy currents crossing the plate boundaries are not significant.  (There's still drag from eddy currents circulating as edge-on vortices within the plates, or crosswise in the copper wiring - but due to the thinness of the wire and plates these are quite limited - and they were present (or replaced by something larger) in the other magnetic material arrangements.)

« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 12:47:28 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Flux

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2006, 01:04:17 AM »
With small machines there will be no problem with eddy currents in the coils if they are wound in slots as are all conventional machines.


The ones to watch are the queer things we use here with no magnetic circuit and the copper coils run directly in an air gap.


At frequencies involved in wind power there is no trouble with wire sizes that you can reasonably hand wind. Anything thicker than #12 may start to show signs, but such thick wire is not easy to wind for small hand produced coils and you would choose smaller wires wound 2 or 3 in hand, so you are not likely to see the problem.


If you try to scale it up to a high powered engine driven version then don't go for thick copper strip. Even then you should be reasonably ok if you keep smaller than #14.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 01:04:17 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: eddie currents
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2006, 01:12:04 AM »
Johnlm

The insulation required to stop eddy currents is minimal, in many cases just using laminates without insulation is adequate, in days of old, rust was sometimes used but it has long term mechanical problems. Most motors of the lower grade use a form of oxidation from the annealing process often using steam. The better grades use a thin flash coat of temperature cured varnish. It is usually permissible to weld the back of a core pack as long as you keep away from the teeth.


Smearing damage to the teeth is unlikely to have any significant effect. Usually tooth damage causes teeth to cut the windings, if that hasn't happened then I don't think you would notice any increased loss.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 01:12:04 AM by Flux »