Author Topic: Quad bar  (Read 8926 times)

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vawtman

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2006, 06:52:28 PM »
Mike

  These machines are complicated and will have there day.Ive got a weird centrifical gen spinning in my head that would be a perfect fit.A cylinder hone inside a motor using magnets instead.I think I need to step away for awhile.Variable Airgap Alternator.Thanks for your replies.

 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 06:52:28 PM by vawtman »

IntegEner

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2006, 10:10:17 AM »
Putting the generator on the ground is an advantage but a different way of saying it is the blades of the verticals can potentially go on forever up into the sky where they belong, provided, of course, that the rotor shaft bearing on top can be supported. All of these posts about the vibrations, etc. are interesting but some basic facts need to be said and understood. One is that the reason for the "self-furling" at high wind speeds is the high friction drag of the blades on the upwind portion of their journey. It may even be worth the effort to go to four blades if it means that each blade can be made just as thin as is possible so as to minimize this drag and still allow the rotor to start. A truism may be that cutting the blade thickness in half may allow the rotor to rotate twice as fast, something to think about. Another thing is that the power produced by each blade drops with its distance from the centerline on all verticals, leaving this uncollected energy in the wind. So it is reasonable to place another verticals turbine back behind the first and overlapping in such a way as to capture this left over energy. In fact, the bright idea that comes to mind is to place three verticals turbine rotors on the ground close together in an equilateral triangle and connected on top for mutual self-support of all three top bearings. No guy wires or outside frames needed. Then the rotors can be made just as tall as desired. Meanwhile, no matter the direction of the wind, the three rotors will effectively augment each other making up for each other's inefficiencies off the centerlines. Certainly this would be better at least in saving space on the ground than three separate turbines distant from each other and all supported with guy wires or the mighty H-Rotor towers. Someday wind machines will reach up to 1000 feet and it is doubtful that this will be accomplished with the horizontals, no matter their advanced composite blades and inherent efficiency. See the new carbon fiber verticals blades on a turbine now available in the U.K. at http://www.carbonconcepts.co.uk/ . Notice how thin they are.


Anthony C.

www.integener.com

« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 10:10:17 AM by IntegEner »

vawtman

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2006, 01:18:52 PM »
Anthony

 Sorry but I disagree with the thin blade concept for vawts.My opinion from testing.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 01:18:52 PM by vawtman »

IntegEner

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2006, 05:27:21 PM »
Keep testing. Keep testing. The verticals need some solid data for all the people who have not persevered and given up on them and you have some good, honest, welcome insights to offer. It is best to know their strengths and weaknesses beforehand and that is what I am making available as someone who has spent time studying them. If you believe that air has no or negligible viscosity, that is, about 1.81 x 10^-4 poises or kinematic viscosity of .15 cm^2/sec (which is greater than that of water) then you are in the minority!! Remember that only the verticals have any chance of being built like tall skyscrapers and reach heights of 1000 feet with efficiency!!!


Anthony C.

www.integener.com

« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 05:27:21 PM by IntegEner »

IntegEner

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2006, 09:59:46 PM »
Yes and I forgot to mention that air viscosity is a two-edged sword. It forms a part of the Reynolds Number, the denominator, and as such keeps the RN in check so that the airfoil maintains flow attachment and doesn't stall out. So, I imagine if the viscosity of air were to be zero, airplanes couldn't fly and wind turbines wouldn't turn, even drag turbines. Hey, all that I am saying is give Newton's Law a chance - F = ma or in a better form, F = (dm/dt)Del V . Sooner or later, believe me, everyone begins to look at what is happening to the air as it hits the blades instead of the amps coming out of the generator wires!!!


Anthony C.

www.integener.com

« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 09:59:46 PM by IntegEner »

CG

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2006, 02:55:51 AM »
It's the alternator that interests me on the carbonconcepts site. I read a while back that Durham university was looking for licensees for their new axial flux alternator, it seems that carbonconcepts has licensed it. It's very hard to get your hands on a PMA here in the UK, perhaps things will change with this one from Durham. While it looks pretty much like the ones that are made by people on this site, Durham has patents on their generator. I hope that someone sells some smaller size models of it.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 02:55:51 AM by CG »

vawtman

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2006, 03:07:46 PM »
CG

 That is a cool alt.Ive been trying to figure how solwinds magnetic levitation alternator is designed.I would love to see just the stator.I would like to build an axial flux type at some point.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 03:07:46 PM by vawtman »

vawtman

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2006, 03:48:59 PM »
Anthony

 Can you draw me your ideal blade shape for the 8x8 and then we can put the issue to rest.Ill build them and install on my rotor.

  The lucky thing is that theyll be dual supported.So I can probably support thin blades.

 Remember were still 2 bladed.Thanks
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 03:48:59 PM by vawtman »

CG

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2006, 03:00:40 AM »
vawtman,


Go to www.dur.ac.uk/technology.transfer click on licensing then engineering. There is a pdf file about the alt. with some pics.


Did you visit www.eurowind-uk.net and take a look at the H-vawt's built in the UK in the 1980s?

« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 03:00:40 AM by CG »

vawtman

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2006, 05:23:07 PM »
Hi CG

  Yes I did and agree that hrotors are self regulating.This myth of them spinning into oblivion is not true.You could design a blade shape to furl at certain wind speeds.Thanks for the info.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 05:23:07 PM by vawtman »

IntegEner

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2006, 09:43:15 PM »
Agreed, if you will get me some reasonable measure of the power and windspeed found. The foundation looking over my shoulders just gave me a day ago a tentative go-ahead over the first hurdle of the approval process, only some 3 or 4 more hurdles to go. 8 x 8 is probably close enough to 6 x 10 (blade length x rotor diameter) for the test device proposed. Questions remain but this offer is timely. Look for a further reply soon.


Anthony C.

www.integener.com

« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 09:43:15 PM by IntegEner »

IntegEner

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2006, 07:54:14 AM »
Mr. V -


If you are still there, here is what we are about to do and you can watch and decide how this fits your rig. I am using sheet metal blades 6 inch wide with the leading edges bent back with a radius bend resulting in about a 4 and a half inch wide blade chord. This will be a horizontals setup, while yours is a verticals. For this unit the rotor is to be fixed (with no yaw) on top of our 15 foot tall wooden tower. (If you haven't visited the website, please do so and you will see it.) We have a special shaft bearing using PVC pipe and two 1/2" ID, 1 and 1/8" OD bearings all available from local hardware stores. This will allow two 6 foot long threaded rods to be mounted on it as backbones for the blades - the blade leading edges just slip over them. They are to be about 3 inches apart axially, yours would best be a little less, maybe 2 inches. The blades themselves will be 22 inches long, while yours would be the full lengths. This gives us some 14 inches of radius around the hub with no blade coverage but there are plans to put something there that is wide and "flops" back and forth for startup. If you have followed this so far you will see that our blades will have no camber (will be symmetrical) and no pitch angle either, unusual for a horizontals but similar to your verticals. From what you see so far they will be doubled, the two rods supporting blades one behind the other. There will be a few flat connectors fastening the two blades of each pair together out along their lengths that help them support each other.


The tower is near a building which helps direct the wind flow in only two directions, west and east, naturally occurring here anyway in the mountain pass. The rotor will not yaw but this arrangement will allow the turbine to rotate the same rotational direction with wind from either of the two earth directions, also unusual but similar to how verticals work. The key is in using symmetrical blades and doubling them.


The smaller horizontals rotor we have now works well with its 3 inch wide, doubled, thin, sheet metal, 3/8 inch diameter leading edge, blades and zero pitch angle (but with a forward angled leading edge). It has a blade offset, the rear blade of the pair out ahead of the front blade about one inch. We are to do away with the offset and the forward angled leading edge in this new, larger rotor. I believe it will work well and there is room toward the center of the rotor face to do something about the startup, mentioned earlier. To see this in operation, no yaw, big blades, producing power with maybe a fan belt to a generator mounted on the top of the tower, running at a high rate with wind from either direction, and with an axis only 15 feet off the ground on the wooden tower with its ladder, will be a good demonstration. Certainly the smaller one has attracted attention.


Haven't yet decided about the diameter of curvature of the leading edges, i.e. what would normally be called the blade thickness. It will be in the range of about 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch and these are so easy to make we may make several sets of blades with different such leading edge diameters to try them all out.


You would best use wood and not sheet metal and it seems you have the ability to make good blade profiles with it. You will be happy to know that for thin blades like this you need not start with wood pieces that are very thick. They will need to support each other somehow with metal bracing between them along their lengths for strength.


I was never a believer in doubled blades like this until one day, after many futile efforts watching my small verticals projects refuse to start up no matter how thick and rounded the leading edges on them, I tried doubling them and they started up beautifully in even the lightest of winds. Ropatec and others use very thick blades and that is fine but it seems they have just never thought of doubling them.


Anthony C.

www.integener.com Please visit this website.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 07:54:14 AM by IntegEner »

IntegEner

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Re: Quad bar
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2006, 07:14:39 AM »
Again, the basis for what is being done here is Newtonian theory, things like F = ma. It tends to be how the sailors think about the wind rather than the aviators, not to overemphasize what I have said many times. So my blades tend to look like sails, thin and wide. If you want to see someone else who thinks this way, look at what is going on over on the AWEA small wind discussion list the last few days with extensive comments from and about a guy, Craig Mead, who lives on a sailboat at anchor in a harbor near San Francisco and powers all of his activities, including a workshop on board full of power tools, from the wind: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home/messages/ . I believe he has something to offer. His questioning attitude is similar to mine. It all starts with the blades and few seem willing to deviate from "accepted dogma" that pervades everything in wind energy and says that the blades are well understood and readily copied out of books, just do it the way it is done in aviation and if it doesn't work just make them longer. The fact continues to be that more can be gained in addressing blade and rotor inefficiencies of wind turbines than anything else. Some photos of how I am proceeding with this project will be made available soon. I was up on the tower ladder yesterday taking measurements for the fixtures upon which the rotor shaft will be mounted. I am under much scrutiny here as this effort is highly visible and what I intend to do well known, like someone bravely setting out on a dangerous trip.


Anthony C.

www.integener.com

« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 07:14:39 AM by IntegEner »