F&P 5ft blade wind test.

[Jerry]

I tryed my 8" extension today for the first time. Normaly I fly the plastic Jerry blades at 49". I had made some 6" extension that took the blades to 55".

I did a wind test on the F&P on 11-3-04. Today I did the same wind test with the same blades but with 8" extensions.

The results are very impresive in terms of increased power.

Here are a few #s for compairison.

55" at 10 mph 0 watts, at 15 mp 127 watts, at 20 mph 195 watts, at 25 mph 360 watts, at 30 mph 450 watts.

Now the #s from the.

61" at 10 mph 33 watts, at 15 mph 135 watts, at 20 mph 286 watts, at 25 mph 507 watts, at 30 mph 659 watts.

The big diferance begins to show up at 20 mph.  These figures are a result of wind testing in my S-10 pu. It has been sugjested these #s are most likely scewed from the wind excelerating of the truck cab? could be?

However both blade sets were tested on the same truck, mast hight, load and the same meters were used. So the diferance is real.

There is still a sevier startup isue with this F&P. It has not been decogged. But once it begins to spin (at 20 mph) it will cotinue to spin down to 8 mph.

Heres a few pictures.

                           JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

PS. I forgot to mention this was a down wind test. I intend to fly the F&P down wind to keep the watter out.

                           JK TAS Jerry

[adelaide]

hi jerry i had the same start up prob but made root area larger on my 5 non-decogged F&P and overcome that, size and angle similar to what calculator suggests. unsure if this affects high speed at all. but have got max out in high winds. cool to see some results hope more to come.

what configuration are u using a 80p  12 v?

 

[Spelljammer]

Nice, I like to see testing like that.  I need to make a stand for my pickup to do some testing.  I need to find a relatively straight road that doesn't have a bunch of traffic on it though.

I wonder if it is a typo, but you went from 49" to 55" with a 6" extension, but when you went with an 8" extension it went to 61".  Shouldn't that be 57"?  Or am I just misunderstanding something?

Anyway, it's amazing how much a little bit like that makes a difference.  It doesn't seem like the part of the blade close to the center even makes much difference.  Which I've heard before.

I've got a 6 blade 55" windmill now and I've made a new blade template that will be 76" diameter and only 3 blades.  Gotta get some more 10" pipe though.  That power difference should be very noticeable!  

[willib]

Jerry , would it too hard to hook a switch to the F&P , to switch the works on when the blades are turning , and to switch it off when the blades are not turning ?

[DanB]

Cool Jerry!

From what Ive heard the F&P like a bit more diamter than 48...

I bet your neighbors think you're weird ;-)

[Experimental]

  OK Jerry,

   I think I know why we have been seeing so much strange weather -- all those wind gens you put up, is moveing the continent !!!  Ha Ha...

   All kidding aside, well done --- and I sure wish I could get back to my wind gens ,but just to many other things are keeping me out of the shop..

  Our best to you, and enjoy your posts,  Bill H......

[zubbly]

hi jerry!

great testing as always!  always enjoy your posts.

whats your procedure for decogging the F&P ?  

p.s.  any more gennys on your property and its going to lift off one of these days  

have fun!

zubbly

[Warrior]

Hi Jerry, nice machine. I can see that for you, any pole or rooftop is good for a genny : ), they're all over the place...

It has been sugjested these #s are most likely scewed from the wind excelerating of the truck cab? could be?

Yes maybe the air is going faster over the truck, but all you would have to do to get "real" numbers is mount an anemometer at hub height and take it's reading rather than the truck's speedo. Then you will know for sure how fast the wind is blowing fast the genny.

Good Work!

Warrior

[RP]

Jerry,

Any chance you could build a front mount for your mill testing?  If a pickup can handle a front mounted snow plow, it should have no trouble with a mill.  Then you could ignore the effects of the cab AND see the mill under test.

[Jerry]

Hi adelaide.

I'm not sure wich F&P I have? Dan B or Tom W might know? I did a littel mod to it.

Odly enough I wired it star. I wire each coil accross from each other in sires. the start of one coil goes to a common star point. The hi lead of the other coil goes to 2 diodes. These doides are conect oposit polarity. 1 doide conects to all the pos. the other doide conects to all the neg. 42 6 amp diodes all together.

 I'll see if I can find some pictures of what I did?

Yes its 12 volt. i saw upwards of 50 amps today. First time I tested it a went around 50 plus and saw over 60 amps into a 12 volt load.

                  JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Spelljammer.

I know the math seems odd. So I went out to the shop to measured again. From the center of the shaft to the blade tip measurtes 30.5".

I think its beacause both the blade and the hub have a 2" X 2" mounting tab.

Anyway thats how the #s come out.

What is the genny in your picture and what kind of power does it do?

                               JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Dan B.

Ya but there all good about my wind farm. The only time I had a complaint was when I had the 403 here at home.

I took that noise maker down to my store in the industrial park. Have you replaced your neighbor at your driveways 403 yet?

I thought my blades might work well there on that speaker basket dual rotor.

                   JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

Thanks Bill H.

We're thinkin about comming up your way in a month or 2. If we do we'll stop by.

                           JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Zubbly.

My F&P is not decogged yet. I don't think I will decog it. I've heard you loose 10% but not sure.

I know it will work good on the high wind days. I was surprised that down wind had no ill effects on preformance.

                           JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

Hi Warrior.

I've thought of doing that but I'll get back to building the wind tunnel. The road is a big hastel.

                           JK TAS Jerry

[Spelljammer]

Jerry,

Hi.  Yeah, my gen is a modified alternator from Mikeswindmill page.  It is 800 watts into 24 volt bank at 900 rpm.  I'm using it for a 12 volt bank though. I don't expect more than 400 watts though at about 450 rpm. Wind is really turbulent there so I want to move it to my roof if I can...got neighbors though

It has gotten up to 14 amps going into 15 volts.  It was a cold day and my solar panels will overcharge the batteries a little based on temp sensor in the battery box.  I use a c-60 charge controller for those.  But windmill just runs through an amp meter shunt.  So about 210 watts so far.  I think the bigger blades and on the roof ( 2 stories higher than it is now) should do the trick and get me 300 to 400 watts.

[SamoaPower]

Jerry,

I'm also a bit confused about your blade sizes. I assume your reference point of 49" is the diameter (not the radius) of the swept area. If you add a 6" extention to each blade the diameter increases by twice that to 61". Likewise, a 8" extention would take you to 65". The swept area increases by the ratio of radius^2 which means 14% for these two cases.

Looking at your comparison data for the two sizes shows a 47% increase in output at 20 and 30 mph. With a 14% increase in area and everything else remaining the same,  I don't see how this is possible. Is there something I'm missing here?

[oztules]

SamoaPower

I think that these figures are correct

55" at 10 mph 0 watts, at 15 mp 127 watts, at 20 mph 195 watts, at 25 mph 360 watts, at 30 mph 450 watts.

Now the #s from the.

61" at 10 mph 33 watts, at 15 mph 135 watts, at 20 mph 286 watts, at 25 mph 507 watts, at 30 mph 659 watts.

However he describes how he got there,.... on the test figures 55 and 61 inches appear to be the ones.

for the 55" = 22.5x22.5x3.1416= 1591

for the 61" = 30.5x30.5x3.1417= 2922

more likely to explain the 47%

.........oztules

[adelaide]

the f/ps  are named after wire sise eg 60=.6 mm wire ,80=.8mm wire and 100 is 1mm wire . they are capable of 1 to 112 amps/12v in diff wire conbos as you would expect hi rpm more amps more paralell( current) wires  (100 parallel verry hi rpm)prob moore with neos ,

 intresting wirring conbo u have i got some figers hear on max amps and efishancs if i can help what wire sise is yours?

ps found middle bit of prop is the extra bit talk u need on start up on theas coogy things cos is not staledd at 0 rpm. would like to know if u get better results with ur wiring /diod conbo conperd to tradishonal so can use the better way hope u do conparison 1 day and see if worth the extra diods for morre watts?

[SamoaPower]

Sorry oztules, can't agree even if the real diameters are 55" and 61" which I doubt.

You show the radius for the 55" diameter as 22.5" when it's actually 27.5". Using the correct radius gives an area of 2376 sq in. for a differential of 22%.

Still don't understand the power comparison.

[Jerry]

Hi SamoaPower.

My standard diameter for my plastic blades are 49 inches tip to tip or 24.5 inches from shaft center to tip. I call this a 49 inch blade. with the 6 inch extension the blade measures  55 inches tip to tip. I call this a 55 inch blade. With 8 inch extensions the blade mesures 30.5 inches tip to tip. I call this the 61 inch blade.

Then I just fly them in my S-10  P/U and write down the #s I see at each MPH.

 I think the confusion lies in the way the blades are mounted. The 49" blade is mounted directly to the steel hub. Both the blade and the steel hub have 2' X 2" mounting tabs. In the 49" these 2 tabs are directly overlaped. Blades 2X2 directly over the hubs 2X2.

With the extensions this not the case so an additional 2" is added. Because of exact mounting locations on the extension they just camew out at 49", 55" and 61".

These are the measured diameters. Depending on where the mounting holes are drilled effects diameter.

I apolajize for the cofusion. It would have been best if I just described the blade as 49", 55" and 61" by vertue of extensions ands not used the 6" and 8" referance. Sorry bout that.

As per the amps volt #s again I just write down what the meters read and thats hard to do when your left handed, watching the road,Fluke true rms digi meter for volts, realy nice analog amp meter,truck speedo meter, the road, kids, trafic, corners and my voice recorder broke.

All of this is why I'm so desperate for to build my wind tunnel.

It will be much more accurate and safe.

                         JK TAS Jerry

[Experimental]

   OK Jerry,

   we will be looking for you (if I,m not at the cabin)

   Have been enjoying your posts and photos -- you have been real busy !!

  Good day, Bill H...

[richhagen]

Jerry, that is good, because picturing you racing down the road backwards at 20MPH seems dangerous.  :-)  Rich

[tecker]

I think you were looking for a cowling to cover up the motor . What I did for my

 ceiling fan conversions was to use the outer trim cover .Covered the openings with window screen

and urethane foam trimmed and added two layers of polyester and window screen layers it easily sands smooth then prime and paint.

[jimovonz]

Perhaps it can be attributed to a better match with the larger diameter blades. The smaller blades may be overloaded by the alt/load and stalling to some degree - leading to a lower than expected output relative to their swept area. This would certainly be in keeping with my experience with the smartdrive motor/alt where I would use diameter of 75+ inches

[oztules]

Thanks SamoaPower

I'm agreeing with you and not agreeing with me....lets see half of 55 is...is...mental block...is....

...........oztules

[SamoaPower]

Don't think so because of the power progression for the smaller rotor, particularly between 20 and 30 mph. If the rotor was near stall at 20 mph, the ouput would not increase at such a rate at higher speeds.

[ghurd]

ROLF

Took a minute to get it.

G-

[finnsawyer]

You're in a good position to add a hemispherical cowling to cover the area of the extensions.  This would have the effect of capturing the power lost in that region as well as possibly reducing drag by the extensions.  Another offshoot, since the air speeds up going around a sphere, is that the unit may give power at a lower wind speed, as it apparently wants to do anyway with the increased diameter.  You would probably need to change the angle of attack and eventually the pitch profile to maximize the benefits.

[domwild]

Great pictures as usual! And interesting!

Keep up the good work!

*

[elvin1949]

morning Jerry

 NICE setup.

?-would it help startup if you made the extention's

as wide as the blades.It would make for a wider blade root and MIGHT break the cogging at a lower wind speed.

 Just a thought.--Again nice THANK'S

later

Elvin

[Jerry]

Hi Elvin.

I have given this some thought. The 61" blade is temporary. I hope to get back to the 8FT foam blades I started a year or 2 ago.

They are twice as wide as the  61" blades. I think the lingth and width will overcome the cogging isues.

This 61" blade as is works very well to drive the 8" dual rotor into eccess heat at to heavy load so it has a fair and useable amount of power.

I'll remove it from the F&P when I've made the larger blades and transfur the 61" to a better suited alt.

Hope to be installing the F&P on the tower in a day or 2.

                           JK TAS Jerry