Author Topic: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std  (Read 1054 times)

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watermanhfl

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Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« on: July 16, 2006, 11:56:08 PM »
I started welding up my new mill and realized it is mirror image to Dan's design.  Will it still furl the same with Gyroscopic action of blades?

Tks

Ant

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 11:56:08 PM by (unknown) »
10' axial on 50' tilt-up.  3.4k solar grid tied. Upstate NY

Countryboy

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2006, 07:30:53 PM »
Hi Ant,

  I believe Dan's new 20 footer furls to the right also.  I don't recall if he has his blades spinning the same direction as his left side furl machines.


If you haven't carved your blades yet, you can always carve them to spin the opposite direction, just to be safe, since the tail is on opposite.


Personally, I don't think it will cause a problem.  I've seen commercial turbines with the tail furling on the right side before.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 07:30:53 PM by Countryboy »

DanB

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2006, 08:45:01 PM »
Yes - that's exactly right, my 20' machine is completely backwards from normal.  It seems to furl fine though Ive not seen much wind on it yet (I've only seen it start to furl).  I dont think blade direction is going to matter much although I've not tested enough stuff to know for sure.  Mick Sagrillo seemed to think that would have some  impact on how it furls though I don't quite understand why.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 08:45:01 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Flux

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2006, 12:31:47 AM »
It will be fine. There is a difference in that as it yaws one way the gyroscopic force will tend to lift the rotor like a hellicopter and the tips of the blades will cone clear of the tower.


When it yaws the other way the tendency is to throw the blade tips towards the tower.


Someone will no doubt do the maths and tell us which is which, you can do it with a spinning bike wheel and see for yourself.


It is likely that in operation, the yaw into furl will be more violent than the recovery from furl and it should make sense to have the yaw towards furl bring the blade tips clear of the tower.


As normally built, machines throw their tips towards the tower during yaw and yours may be better.


Reversing both as Dan has done brings the situation back to convention.


Unless you have a really tall tower and the machine is in clean air you will having it yawing rapidly either way below furl and you must have adequate blade clearance anyway.

Flux

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:31:47 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2006, 12:39:42 AM »
That should have said:-


As normally built, machines throw their tips towards the tower during furl.

Flux

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:39:42 AM by Flux »

watermanhfl

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2006, 04:21:49 AM »
Tks to all for the thoughts on the opposite design.  When I am complete I will post pics(small) and tell the rest of story.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 04:21:49 AM by watermanhfl »
10' axial on 50' tilt-up.  3.4k solar grid tied. Upstate NY

BigBreaker

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2006, 07:25:27 AM »
There's another configuration.  Have the rotor on one side of the mast and the tail pivot on the other.  The rotor and tail fold "together" in when furling in high winds.


It's not a huge deal but that balances the torque from the weight of the offset rotor and the offset tail.  I think it looks a little better too.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 07:25:27 AM by BigBreaker »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Furling 10' - Mirror image to std
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2006, 01:51:09 PM »
Someone will no doubt do the maths and tell us which is which, you can do it with a spinning bike wheel and see for yourself.


Easy way to remember it:


Gyroscopic action causes the motion in response to a force to be "carried along" with the rotation by a quarter-turn.


So if, for instance, the blade is turning clockwise (as viewed from the front) and when going into furl is yawed clockwise (as viewed by from the top), the forward push at 3 oclock becomes a forward motion of the blade at 6 oclock, deflecting the blade away from the tower.


This is because the force on the blade causes an ACCELLERATION of its motion.  In the above scenario the force toward the wind on a given blade starts at zero at noon, becomes maximum at 3, and goes back to zero at 6 - accellerating the blade toward the windward all the way.  So when it gets to 6:00 it's moving maximally into the wind in response to the force.  (Then the same thing happens in reverse on the other half turn.)


As Flux said:


It is likely that in operation, the yaw into furl will be more violent than the recovery from furl and it should make sense to have the yaw towards furl bring the blade tips clear of the tower.


This is because unfurling force is limited by the force from the tail, which is in turn limited by the furling system geometry (pivot angles, tail length, weight, and vane area) and is in opposed by the force on the offset turbine, which nearly balances it.  Too much force from the wind and the tail folds up and the mill furls again.  Furling force is limited only by the strength of the gust (which is arbitrarily large), and with the tail having bailed out almost completely in a strong gust the force from the offset turbine is nearly unresisted.  Also:  Furling happens when the turbine speed is near maximum and accellerating, maximizing gyroscopic effect, while unfurling occurs when the prop is slowing down from a furling-limited speed (which may be lower).

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:51:09 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »