Author Topic: Help setting up a Xantrex C-40 load controller for a wind generator.  (Read 2857 times)

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RodonSaipan

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I need help with a grid-tie setup. Does anyone have experience with this setup.  This is what I have, FX 3648 Outback inverter and Mate, 8 Trojans 6 volt batteries. A 10 ft 48 volt wind generator, 12 magnets, 9 coils (290 turns, #21 awg) a C-40 Xantrex controller. I spoke to the Outback tec's and the Xantrex tec's about the setup and they didn't give me the help I was looking for. I'm trying to get this setup to sell back the extra power back to the utility company or just future credit for later use. I have the manuals but I'm still green about the electrical hook-up. I'm hoping to find someone to work me through the hook up step by step.


My windmill is mounted on a 56' till up tower. It has three phase AC out put that I convert thru a series of 35 amp bridge rectifiers.  I have the inverter hooked up and it works fine, switching from utility power to the batteries without a problems. The Xantrex tec said to hook the C-40 as a load controller using a water heater element as diversion load. I did and it worked well with the wind blowing hard and the inverter on. After the batteries ran low and the inverter kicked back to utility power to charge the batteries it dumped a lot of power into the water heater element causing it to start melting the plastic parts on it.


I must not have the voltage parameters set right for this. I'm not sure how I got this far with this project but I'm really lost at this point. Any help would be great.


rodonSaipan

« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 01:33:00 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: Help setting up a Xantrex C-40
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2006, 09:23:26 AM »
 It would be very hard to sell power back to the utility with a C-40. Sounds to me like you don't know what your doing. The C-40 will work as a safety device if your grid tied and power fails to dump the extra power that the wind turbine makes. It is going to dump in your case 48 volt dc to a diversion load. If you go about it the right way and get permission from the grid utility co. You will need a professional to hook it up. They will hook up a pre approved inverter that will run a three cycle charge on your batteries. When your batteries are full for that cycle it will sell back to the grid the excess power. Basically it sells (dumps power to the grid) That the batteries can't take, or is above all dc loads and batteries. The inverter if proper will be controlling the dump load when the utility is up and running. When it's not the C-40 will need to be set to a higher setting than the inverters settings in all the stages of the charge cycles to dump to a diversion. This way it doesn't dump when you want to sell it. There is a bunch of ways to program the inverter to sell. This is the basic way. You really need the manuals to understand how to program your equipment. The C-40 has jumpers in it that will have to be set for 48 volts and diversion load. It also has potentiometers to adjust the voltages. You won't know without a picture. Try to Google the manuals on the equipment.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 09:23:26 AM by jmk »

jmk

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Re: Help setting up a Xantrex C-40
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2006, 09:37:23 AM »
 I'm sorry I thought that you didn't have your manuals. You need to read the parts on voltage setting in each manual. The C-40 needs to be set just a bit higher so it doesn't kick on before the inverter sells, or while its selling.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 09:37:23 AM by jmk »

nailed

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Re: Help setting up a Xantrex C-40 load controlle
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 11:56:21 AM »
I will say that you don't sound like you know what you're doing at all.  But if you read all the instruction books you should get a good idea on how to do it.  Once you get an idea of what your doing I would try a post at the http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/ site.  


Depending on where you live you will have to get a contractor to do all the final wiring for a grid connects system.  A lot of places you will have to get a city inspection and POCO will also send out there own inspectors to look over the system and to test for back feeding.  


I do recommend you contact a contractor where you live.  If you fail an inspection they can cut your power till it's fixed.  That way you can get bailed out.  

« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 11:56:21 AM by nailed »

RodonSaipan

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Thank you guys for trying to help.
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 04:45:03 PM »
Yes I have talked to every expert here on Saipan and they all have the answer or opinion, but have never done it themselves. I think most of them have only read about it on the web, or one expert drove by a wind farm last year, making him a windmill expert.


I have had to figure this windmill / inverter / battery hookup by myself, because no one is doing it here. Most of the people that know the most about electrical and electronics only say they don't really know how to hook that up.


I was looking for someone that has hooked a grid-tie inverter with solar and a wind generator. The inverter and batteries was easy, it came with a wiring diagram to set up the system and that works fine. Even hooking the windmill to the batteries to charge them was easy, now to setup the system to roll back the meter using solar panels (30-50 watt) and a Hugh Piggott designed windmill is a little tricky.


The problem with asking Outback for help is when you tell them that you are using a Xantrex C-40 to control the wild AC from your windmill they start backing off helping you. Same as asking the Xantrex tech's for help tying that C-40 to an Outback inverter.


If I had listened to the experts about this here, I wouldn't be this far along. At least I have power at my house when they (local utility company) cut the power 2-3 hours a day for fuel rationing. Two years ago, I was told Saipan wasn't a good choice for solar because too many clouds, and that wasn't good for wind, because the wind doesn't blow here for two months out of the year. Sound to me then a hybrid system would work well here. When the wind is not blowing it's cloud-less and when the wind is blowing the most it's cloudy.  


Not only do they cut the power almost every day but my last three bills were over $800.00 per month. The results of their latest fuel rate increase. We pay .32 cent per kilo-watt here. The highest rate in the nation, justified or not. If you use their power it cost you, so that is my motivation for doing this. I still like using my AC because it really gets hot here.


The FXGV-3648 Outback inverter has a built in charger and is hooked up to the grid to sample the power so it can match the frequency before returning the power to your house. It also senses the lack of power and will not put power into the grid if the utility power is off preventing back feeding a line that the workers think is dead. This is a UL required feature for grid tie systems.


My question was I don't think I have it hooked up right because why is so much electricity being wasted heating that element. It should be, being dumped into the grid not heating that element?  


I spoke to the Xantrex tech on how to set that up. He walked me thru it and said that should work. When I got it hooked up and tried it, I called them back but they are closed till Monday.


I'm hoping someone can help me fine tune this inverter / load controller setup.


rodonSaipan

« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 04:45:03 PM by RodonSaipan »

richhagen

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Help setting up a Xantrex C-40 load controller
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2006, 05:24:49 PM »
Hmm, it sounds like the charging voltage from the inverter is higher than the cut in voltage set on the C40.  When your charging, the C40 kicks in and dumps to the water heater element.  If you are dumping as much power as the charger puts out, your batteries never charge and the dump load never cuts off.  Your water heater element setup is apparently not robust enough for continuous duty at the voltages it sees dumped to it.  Have a careful look at the voltage settings on the charger and the dump load controller, and make your dump load more robust, because in high sustained winds you might actually achieve and maintain voltages higher than the charger.  I would also advise having a someone with lots of experience, or a professional have a look at your setup if possible as two sets of eyes and knowlege are usually better than one.  Rich
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 05:24:49 PM by richhagen »
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richhagen

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Help setting up a Xantrex C-40 load controller
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 12:57:08 AM »
I received your email and replied, but at the time I was thinking you had a Xantrex inverter, I reposted the main contents of my e-mail response here and then edited them a bit.  I don't have an Outback inverter, but I hear they are reliable, but the basics are below.  I don't claim to be much of an expert, just trying to help, so don't send me your bill if things go wrong, in other words verify for yourself before application.  


It would be a good idea to look at the battery fact sheet that our hosts here put together as it is a good source of basic information.  It is located off of the front page and I have copied a link here:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery.html


The Outback probably has a three stage charger, which charges the batteries in three stages, bulk stage - where a basic constant current is applied to charge the battery to past 80% or so, absorbtion stage where an elevated voltage which is applied to the battery while the charging current diminishes until the battery is essentially completely charged, and float stage at a lower voltage where the battery can be maintained from that point on in a stand by mode.  The exact charging alogrithms for these stages vary with manufacturer.  The charger likely also has an equalization mode, which applies a higher voltage to the batteries for a period of time, allowing all of the cells in the battery to slightly over charge, to equalize the voltage and state of charge of all of the cells.  The purpose of equalization is to prevent the state of charge from different cells of the batteries from varying too greatly, causing some cells to be chronically under charged and others over charged.  In extreme cases of imbalance and then discharge, an individual cell can become completely discharged and reverse, often ruining it.  This is not likely to occur in a situation where you are overcharging the batteries a bit with the wind turbine every once in a while before the dump load kicks on.    


In your case, you will probably want to disable the equalization mode, which is most likely possible with your charger, check your manual.  The reason for disabling equalization is that the higher voltages during equalization will likely turn on the dump load as the C40 will sense the higher voltages and think there is power to be dumped.  You can manually equalize if needed, (disconnect the C40 and dump load) but if the dump voltage is high enough this will likely not be necessary.    


The next thing to do is to look at the voltage settings on the C40.  If you have flooded type of batteries, set the dumping voltage a little bit higher, a slight over charge will not hurt them, and the voltage should rise higher once they are charged if significant input current is applied. The voltage at which it cuts off the dump load should also be adjusted to turn it off before voltage drops low enough on the batteries to kick the charger back into its bulk charging mode.


If adjusting the C40 alone does not solve the problem, then you will also want adjust the voltage on the charging stages of the inverter to prevent the voltage during charging from exceeding the voltage at which the C40 load controller begins to dump power to your load.  Hopefully on your Outback inverter, if it has a three stage charger, the voltage of each stage can be independently set, but refer to the manual for the one you have for the details of whether this can be done and how to do this.  You will also want to have a meter so that you can verify the voltages and make adjusting easier.  If the dump load kicks on during any of the charging stages (other than float stage if it is maintained indefinitely), then you will have to make adjustments to the inverter and load controller to prevent this.  


Additionally, you will want to check your dump load.  It should be able to handle the maximum voltage your battery bank is likely to see (not just the nominal voltage of the battery bank) and dump as much power as you are likely to generate.  It should be robust, so that it will not burn off, start a fire, melt plastic, or have other difficulties during periods of sustained high winds, or other generation.  Some inverters can control loads for dumping as well, that might give you additional options, or the capability of having a redundant dump load, so check the manual for your inverter.  


Good luck with your system, Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 12:57:08 AM by richhagen »
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Flux

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Re: Help
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 02:52:54 AM »
I think Rich is on the right lines.


I really don't see why you need the C40 at all.


In normal use the inverter should export all surplus power to the grid. During grid outage you will likely be needing all the power you can produce.


If you must use the C40 just set it above the equalising voltage of the inverters charger. It should be set for dump, you don't need its charge facilities with equalising.


If you do this the inverters charger should never cause the C40 to dump. If you have excess power from sun and wind then the C40 will catch the volts before they start gassing the batteries. This will happen infrequently if ever and will be a bit more equalising and will do no harm.

Flux

« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 02:52:54 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Help
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 03:17:07 AM »
I have just had a quick look at Outback's site and I don't get the impression that it is a grid tie inverter. It looks to be a no break system that takes over when grid fails. If this is true then my comments above are invalid.


Maybe someone knows that inverter better but it looks to me as though you are not going to do what you expect.

Flux

« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 03:17:07 AM by Flux »

robl

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Re: Help
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2006, 02:52:40 PM »
Points for Flux...neither FX or the VFX are grid-tied. That meter should not be going back-wards at all.


Rob

« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 02:52:40 PM by robl »

robl

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Re: Help
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 03:03:37 PM »
Hit "post" too quickly...Should have added, should be a GTFX series machine. Outback has been known to send replacement controller boards to people who purchased the <wrong> version.


As well, the Outback forum has a good search function. The C60/C40 as diverter debate will pop up a fair number of times!  


It does look to be a good time for someone to to develop and sell a truly programmable AC in/DC out load-dump diverter capable of very high AC voltage(s) in and PWM DC out,along with the choice of running right from the gennie or off the batteries....


Like many people here, I built my own, however that's not everyone's cup of tea, not to mention UL/insurance/inspection issues.


Rob


vverry sllowwly hitting "post" again....

« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 03:03:37 PM by robl »

tjspears

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Re: Thank you guys for trying to help.
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 03:57:17 PM »
My wife lived on Saipan for a year and a half before we were married. I remember talking to her on the phone, and could hear the 115+ MPH winds outside the concrete building over the phone 7000 miles away. I hope you planned for that in your windmill and solar installations. It looks like Soulik just missed you guys.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 03:57:17 PM by tjspears »

vincecastro

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Re: Thank you guys for trying to help.
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 11:04:24 PM »
Where is your wind generator at?  I live on Saipan and have a couple of generators going at my bother's house in As Gonno.


Vince

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 11:04:24 PM by vincecastro »