Sales of PMAs for wind turbines

[srimes]

Hello,

I'm new here, but have searched and looked for answers to my questions but haven't see them directly addressed.  I'm getting my master's degree in industrial engineering at the U. of Arkansas, and enjoy manufacturing.  I would like to start my own business but don't expect to be able to do that full time anytime soon as I have a family to feed, so I'm looking for something to do after work (when I get a job).

It looks like there may be a market for low-RPM PMAs.  I'm a hands-on guy and value DIY projects, but I could see that many people wouldn't want to tackle the construction of a PMA.  Could this be a viable guarage business?  I

1. What is the material cost to make one of these?  
   
2. How long does it take a first timer?
   
3. What do you think they could sell for?
   
   

Is this a non-existant market?  Do those with the money to buy a good PMA just buy a complete turbine?

I know that there is a lot a variability in questions 1 and 2, and that 3 is quite subjective, but I'm just trying to get a feel for it right now.

My current impressions:

1. about $200, not counting molds/jigs which for many would come from scraps
   
2. 20 hours labor?
   
3. ebay has worked-over car style PMAs that advertise for wind but don't look suited going for $170.  
   
   

Thanks in advance for any input.

Sean

[nanotech]

I don't think your $200 estimate takes into account magnets or magnet wire.

Mind you, I'm thinking of the ones like DanB's 17 footer.  If I remember rightly he said there was several hundred dollars worth of magnets in one of them.

[geoffd]

There was a recent TV program in the UK about a family that are 'Going Green' and he used a commercial PMA, here a link with a few more details.

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Permanent-Magnet-Generator.htm

http://www.futurenergy.co.uk/products.html

They look to be around 150 GBP for a 1KW PMA.

Cheers

Geoff

[wdyasq]

"I'm getting my master's degree in industrial engineering at the U. of Arkansas, and enjoy manufacturing."

Sounds like you have an education.

 "What is the material cost to make one of these?"

It seems to me a person should be able to read one of the old posts where they quote the pounds of magnet wire and magnets then look up present cost. drawings would need to be made for the rest of the parts and some thought put into efficiency and ease of manufacture. This is normally called 'estimation of cost' and usually covered by a decent education.

 "How long does it take a first timer?"

I think I remember 'about 40 hours' being thrown about.

 "What do you think they could sell for?"

Again, this is usually called 'market research'. The important parts should be covered under 'education' and from there a 'business plan' can be put together if the cost estimate, advertising, insurance and other factors indicate it may be a business.

One of the reasons folks 'build their own' here is there is no good low speed wind turbine on the market. It is probably unmarketable as one only learns the high wind-speed crap sold is only suitable for certain areas with extreme wind speeds. This realization comes after the person has spent several thousand dollars to find the turbine won't work in his conditions.  

A properly built lower wind-speed machine might sell. One would need to inform the potential customer the performance in area is suitable to the mill, have the proper data on a mil suitable for his area (hopefully yours) and convince him the shysters selling all the low-priced magic dreams and bull they just read about in 'Popular Mass Stupidity' and saw on the local news. These folks have just read about a machine the size of a kids oversize lollipop retiring on the electricity they will sell back to the grid at wholesale prices. OH, that will after they give away all they don't use in the all-electric house ....

Good luck,

Ron

[nothing to lose]

Your questions are probably so broad and openended there is no good or correct answer for the questions you asked.

Either that, or the answer is YES.

 I'm not trying to be rude, but...

You can sell anything to some people, so yes there is a market.

I saw some-one was selling SNOW on Ebay, price is pretty high so far, so there is a market for SNOW at this time!

What did the Grilled cheese sandwich with a picture of Jesus sell for?

I geuss a market for those also

It takes at least two bidders to drive up prices in an auction, so some-one must still be looking to buy a Jesus Grilled Cheese Sandwich, so there is a market for one or more.

If you had built one yet yourself you would have the answers for 1 and 2 based on your own experience first hand. So I am geussing you don't really know what you would be getting into in most areas of building these as a business.

 Also I think the questions are so broad as to not even present an idea of what you may like to build? 8', 10', 12' Daul rotor type? Any estimated pricing would be for a certain size. It takes alot more stuff to build a 12' than an 8' and everything varies from blade material costs, steel rotor costs, magnets and wire costs as you may use different sixe coils and magnets.

Small motor convesrions types?

" about $200, not counting molds/jigs which for many would come from scraps"

If your talking about a 8' or 10' dual rotor type your probably no-where near close.

Magnets maybe $125 or more, 6 lbs of wire $70 maybe more, and thats not any metal parts or resins, nothing for blades etc....

 Just Resin and ATH about $60 plus shipping.

You may save a bit buying in volume, but I seriously dought the price would ever get down anywhere around $200.

[finnsawyer]

I'd suggest you approach this systematically as an engineering project in your spare time.  Try building several designs using the same size magnets.  Use small magnets to keep the cost down and don't go over say 8 magnets per alternator.  Build the 3:4 three phase, the 3:2 single phase hybrid that I propose in my diary, and perhaps a regular single phase as well.  You do this to determine what design will give you the best performance at lowest cost.  It is not important at this point to look for high power output.  Once you find a design you like you can scale it up.  Also, keep in mind that you can easily change stators.  Once you have found the best design you should then go to a dual rotor for comparison.  You are going to need to be able to measure RPM and the power output of the alternator over its entire usable range.

 

[ghurd]

I don't see mention of any parameters.  Like output. 50W?  500W?

The Air X costs about $700, while very optimistically rated at 400W.

And $25 could make a 20W turbine.

Something they taught us... `Never design and build something you can get off-the-shelf'.

That leads to this... Just one example.  There are many more I can think of right now.

A GE ECM retails around $350. Large quantity wholesale would be far cheaper, certainly under $250.

"Jerry Blades" are what, $150 complete?  Probably less in quantity.

Add $25 for a bit of welding, $50(?) for stray parts.

So ~$450 will make an honest to goodness 400W turbine, with better `normal wind' output than commercial units in the class.

Consider the liability issues.

G-

[Slingshot]

Sean,

If I were going into this as a business (meaning higher-volume production), I'd look seriously at what the other guys (SWWP, Bergey, etc) in the business are doing. You will note that they DO NOT use air-core axial-flux designs.  Such designs have the advantage of being easy to understand and build, but if you're going to manufacture, you should think about something that offers volume payback in exchange for your design, tooling, and setup investment.

For example - in the air-core designs, magnets represent a significant portion of the materials cost.  That may be fine for the one-off experimenter, to simplify his construction, but the bigger boys use iron-core designs to shave $$ off their material costs.  

[badmoonryzn]

:-)

badmoon

[srimes]

Thanks for all the comments.  It looks like it will be worth further investegation.  Getting an estimation of what it would cost to build won't be too awful, but guaging the market is not an easy task.

Sean