Author Topic: Open Coil Design?  (Read 1088 times)

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brianc4

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Open Coil Design?
« on: May 12, 2008, 01:45:08 PM »
I have my 1st test windmill up & flying! Used a 2.5 Hp PMDC Motor as the generator has good output in 5-15 Mph winds & furls nicely at 17 Mph.


I want to get away from brushes for the obvious reasons so I am interested in building a brushless 3 phase alternator.


I have studied the postings on the alternators & appreciate the good information presented on this site but I have a couple of questions.


Why are the coils cast in resin is this for structural purposes only or for weather-proofing. I understand that the coils get hot so it looks like a open coil design using flat copper band & held together in a frame work with cooling fins on the magnet plates for air circulation would improve output & efficiency. Has anyone tried this?


I have found the flat copper band with nomex cloth insulation from Rea-Essex wire & as luck would have it their largest plant in the U.S. that produces it is in Layfette In. less than 60 miles away from Me. Looks like it would make very neatly wound coils that could be very easily put into a aluminum framework & placed in between the magnet plates.


My other question is along the same line. Why is the resin poured on the magnet rotors is this just to keep the magnets from shifting or to weather-proof the assembly. I have found the 1"X2"X1/2" magnets with a hole in them & the 2" dia. round magnets with a hole in the center. If the resin is just to keep the magnets from shifting or coming off looks to me that drilling & tapping some holes in the plates to hold the magnets on would be easier & less messy.


Thanks: Brian Clark

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 01:45:08 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 08:54:56 AM »
Magnets are potted for weather protection, in certain dry environments it may be unnecessary and you get a little fanning effect if you don't pot them.


Coils are mostly potted for the same reason. If you can find some structurally sound method of holding them together, supporting them and giving satisfactory weather protection there is no need to pot.


Mounting coils in any form of aluminium or other metal is not possible as there will be major eddy losses. Similarly I have some reservations about using tape for coils. If it is thin enough it should be ok especially if it is not too wide. In theory it should work even up to 2 -3 mm thick ( comparable with wire), but such thickness's have been found to cause excessive eddy loss. At one time I was keen on the idea but I am now reluctant to risk it, the stuff is much more expensive than wire and you are very restricted on choice when faced with a given number of turns.


If you go the common route with inefficient stators you do have to consider the temperature issue and other constructions than potting in resin may give you a greater safety margin from heating if you can solve the problems. If you live in a marine environment you will have to make sure your weather protection is adequate.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 08:54:56 AM by Flux »

brianc4

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 10:54:25 AM »
Thanks for the input! What stator design would you recomend as being most efficient that is less heating problems   Brian Clark
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:54:25 AM by brianc4 »

electronbaby

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 02:27:31 PM »
Brian, only you can answer these questions. The final design type you choose should be dictated by your operating environment and the time and money you have to throw into the project,- both in R+D and material cost. As Flux said, some things work better than others in certain climates. You will have to choose your design path not only based on materials available, but on your servicing and upkeep costs associated with ALL small wind systems.


I personally, like the axial flux design. I am off-grid and rely on the very good low wind performance this design offers. I can afford to waste some available energy in high winds because, simply put, I dont need it. This kind of design parameter changes slightly with a grid connected system, in that with a grid connected system, you would want to make use of ALL available energy you can capture. The axial flux design can be made to work well with both if you know what your doing (designing power electronics). Efficiency is the game, and IF you include this into your design parameters, you can make the system become very complicated quickly (which is not a big deal, if you know what your getting into). There are many compromises that must be had. Its a balancing act to say the least.


Good Luck! (you will be doing A LOT of reading.)

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 02:27:31 PM by electronbaby »
Have Fun!!!  RoyR KB2UHF

Flux

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 03:44:43 PM »
Roy has covered this pretty well.


With wind power you have to be very careful when you think about efficiency. With conventional engine driven generators it makes perfect sense to aim for the highest possible efficiency compatible with cost.


Wind has peculiar difficulties and an alternator having the highest efficiency at full load may not be the best choice. Wind turbines spend virtually no time at maximum power and you do far better optimising for good performance on the common winds.


To make use of light winds you need an alternator that is efficient at low power and that presents serious problems from the turbine point of view. Ideally the prop speed needs to track wind speed and a high efficiency alternator wants to run at constant speed, with large increase in current when tied to a fixed battery voltage. To keep prop efficiency up you need an alternator with rising speed characteristics and that implies a high internal resistance ( low efficiency). The general compromise is to drop to 50% alternator efficiency at 3 times cut in wind speed. Loosing half the power in the alternator as heat is a challenge which you can deal with by careful attention to cooling and heat transfer up to a certain point and beyond that you need to limit prop power by furling or other means.


The other option is to keep a high efficiency alternator and produce the losses externally in some form of resistor. This cures the heating problem but comes at an enormous cost in terms of magnet and copper so again you have to compromise.


Far better is to adopt a scheme where the alternator is run at maximum efficiency and the increase in prop speed is obtained by some other means such as an electronic converter to match the rising alternator volts to the fixed battery volts. This solves most of the problems but is not a solution that many will adopt. Eventually we shall see units that are designed for this in the same way as the mppt converters used for solar but at present it is a build it yourself option and not for general use.


If power out in high winds is the main requirement then the iron cored alternators are easiest to cool. They will not equal the axial air gap machines in low winds. How far you can improve the cooling of the axial design depends on your ingenuity and even more on local climate and the protection needed. In the end the power gained in high winds is not often used effectively with battery systems as the batteries are usually fully charged under high wind conditions so as long as you can control the output within the limitations of stator temperature there is little point in worrying.


For heating the low winds are less important and the alternator is best matched more towards the higher winds and then if you track the heating load to keep on the peak of the prop curve you will run the alternator efficiency a lot higher.


With grid tie some form of electronic interface is inevitable ( except induction machines) and the converter will incorporate some approximation to cube law tracking and stator temperature is not a big issue.


I seem to have explained in a very long winded way what Roy covered so well but it may help your understanding of the problems.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 03:44:43 PM by Flux »

brianc4

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 03:56:00 PM »
I live off the grid as well & my power needs are not that great.


I am definatly planning to build a 2 rotor axial machine with 24 magnets & 9 coils almost the exact same design as posted on this site.


I am not interested in reinventing the wheel or generating huge amounts of power from a single windmill but I do want to make sure I take advantage of any simple design addition that might make the windmill run cooler & with less maintenence.


I have been doing alot of reading & enjoy the resarch & appreciate the input & advice from you & others.


Thanks Brian Clark

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 03:56:00 PM by brianc4 »

brianc4

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »
Lots of good information & thanks for taking the time to reply!


As I get further into the project I am definatly interested in more info on electronic converters to match Alt. volts to Batt. volts sounds very interesting but way over my head for now.


I do understand some of the limitations of a small wind turbine and I am not interested in maxing out power output from 1 turbine. If I need more power I will put up 2 or 3 if necessary.


Perhaps I have used the term efficiency in the wrong way! To me efficiency is operating properly within a given limit and doing so with very little maintenence.


I will post some pictures of my test mill and of the axial machine as I get to work on it. If I come up with any cooling inovations I will post them also but it sounds like as long as I let the turbine furl at the appropriate wind speed I shouldnt have problems with the stator overheating, correct me if Im wrong.


Thanks again: Brian Clark

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 04:37:30 PM by brianc4 »

bob golding

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 02:18:50 PM »
my answer to the variable wind problem is to use 2 differant sized props- i have a 1 metre one for the winter wehen thewre is plenty of wind and a 2.3 metre one for summer use. only just changed to the x summer set up so will have to see how it works. so far it seems to catch more of the lower sspeed winds. even ig f it only keeps the battery above self discharge i will be happy. so far it is working. it keep on the original thread i havent seem any heating problems with this set up so far. my dump load is equal to the stator resistance so when the dump loads switches in the mill slows down.


cheers

bob

« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 02:18:50 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

bob golding

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 03:29:35 AM »
opps, sorry about the spelling mistakes in my last post. typing in the dark on a german keyboard :-)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 03:29:35 AM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

TomW

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Re: Open Coil Design?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 12:08:33 PM »
Gee, Bob;


opps, sorry about the spelling mistakes in my last post. typing in the dark on a german keyboard :-)


If we blocked posts on spelling ability some of our  doers would never get a post in. One Editor, too. No offense, Kurt, Jerry or others.


I spell marginally but trust in the spell checker and on tough ones I put it in Google which actually offers correct spelling if you are wrong for a quick idea of spelling.


I would much rather decipher a poorly spelled post from someone doing than a perfectly composed and grammatically correct post by some poser.


Just me.


Keep em coming, bob.


Tom

« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 12:08:33 PM by TomW »