Author Topic: New to this please, I need just a little help!  (Read 10509 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Texas Wood

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
New to this please, I need just a little help!
« on: December 02, 2008, 10:55:05 PM »
OK well I believe an introduction is in order. First off my name is Travis Lawson, I'm 40 years old and I currently own and operate 2 decidedly different companies out of my 2400sqft home workshop here at my Texas coastal bay home. My first company is a custom motorcycle business called Iron Spade Cycles and the other is a surfboard company called Texas Wood. I fabricate hollow wooden surfboards from native Texas grown fine hardwoods. Between these two business my consumption of electricity for day to day operations is quite high at about 12Kw. This amount can be reduced as I'm currently trying to change items such as lighting but it still remains that certain tools and machines have high energy demands.


My location along the coast is ideal for wind power with some solar as a supplement but I do have certain limitations due to weather exposure and the neighbors views that have to be taken into consideration. After studying the Weather Underground website for local weather patterns and wind conditions I've decided on building a row of 2-4 VAWT's close to the ground (on a 6'H. platform) on the cleared 1/2 acre property next door to my shop. Due to the close proximity to the open ocean (12 miles as the crow fly's and a 2 1/2 mile wide island away) we have to consider the very real possibility of a direct hit from a Gulf coast hurricane. I'm trying to design a hurricane proof structure with storm shutters that can close and lock down my investment in the event of such extreme weather.


Although I am a very skilled fabricator and mechanic with many years experience and a degree in Industrial Design I'm quite a novice with electricity. I know I can wire a house or a car and build a computer, but if you were to ask me what the parts on the circuit board are and what they do and I'm totally lost! When I think of building a Vertical Axis wind turbine I can wrap my brain around all of the mechanics of it without a problem but I'm somewhat lost with the single phase/three phase, coil size/coil number, magnet size, etc language...


I'm planning a rather large build for my first time as I know what my capabilities and budget are but I guess I need the most help with the electrics of the whole package. I have several questions that need answering.


My questions are:



  1. Can multiple home-built generators simply be placed along the same prop shaft axis if a sufficient gap or insulating layer be placed between each said generator?
  2. What formula (in layman's terms please) is used to figure out output and working voltages? Or how large and quantity of magnets vs. wire coils would be required for say a 3-5Kw generator spinning in 15-20 MPH winds?
  3. Since I would love to create all of my power usage but have no plans to disconnect from the grid at this time, what items would be needed to be purchased to hook up to my power pole?
  4. Believe it or not my energy company actually encourages remote power generation at the residences in this area, although I don't know of any tax breaks in this county at this time. Any help on where to go to find out if home built systems would qualify for assistance? And last #5
  5. How much heat is actually generated from magnetic fields moving through the air over coils of copper wire suspended between them? If the only friction is the movement of the shaft bearings and side load forces of the prop blades, how can heat be generated? I understand an electric motor can and will get very hot under load, but that is with power being fed to it, not the other way around. Yes, no, maybe?


Thanks in advance for everyone's help with these questions, I wish I had spent more time with electrical engineering guys during my 6 1/2 years in college. But oh well I get it soon enough.


Later T

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:55:05 PM by (unknown) »

kurt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
  • Country: us
    • website
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 04:37:44 PM »
first off you need to learn the difference between a kilowatt (KW) and a kilowatt hour (KWH) i assume you mean you use 12 KWH a day because if you have an average demand of 12 KW then you are running a rather large industry in your shop.....


second if you wanna play and experiment then go with a vawt. if you want to make real power go with a large hawt on a real tower.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 04:37:44 PM by kurt »

wdyasq

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1324
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 04:49:58 PM »
Travis,


If you find a successful pattern for a VAWT, many would like to learn of it.


The closest thing to what you claim you need is the 20' HAWT "Otherpower Mill". Click on the kink so named at the top of the page and spend a while there.


Ron

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 04:49:58 PM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

jonas302

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 04:54:11 PM »
Welcome to the board no offence but a vawt just isn't going to cut it for you when you search around the board you find many big plans and starts of turbines but I think only one Ed Lenz that can substain  100 watts


If you can get it past your neighbors your skills would be put to great use on a big hawt check otherpower.com homepage they run the shop on a big 20 foot


For grid connect you need a grid tie inverter and the blessing of your utility so make good freinds with them first


Others can help with your more specific questions or most ansers can be found with the google search of this board


Oh one more thing the creators of this board just put out a new book probly the best place to start


Hope you stay interested

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 04:54:11 PM by jonas302 »

electronbaby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
  • Country: us
    • Windsine.org
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 05:21:16 PM »
well I have to agree with Kurt. You have a lot of reading to do.


If you are at all serious about producing electricity, then you are going to need some swept area on a tall tower. There is many ways to go about this, and it is VERY doable. Just dont kill yourself in the process. Dont rush into a large project. Take your time and start experimenting.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 05:21:16 PM by electronbaby »
Have Fun!!!  RoyR KB2UHF

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 05:54:53 PM »
For #1, multiple home-built generators CAN simply be placed along the same prop shaft axis, but it not the best idea.

It takes more materials (money) than less material in a single generator.

BTW, it is actually an alternator.  Here we often use "PMA" for Permanent Magnet Alternator".


For #5, heat is watts wasted in the coils.

I^2 R = Watts.  Amps x amps X coil ohms = watts.

Lower coil resistance means less heat and more efficiency.

Multiple PMAs will have more coil resistance than a single large PMA, unless you want to throw money at it.


Yup.  Lots of reading to do.

Sounds like you will enjoy it. :-)

G-

« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 05:54:53 PM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

ruddycrazy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 12:49:06 AM »
G'day Travis,

              As the guys have said VAWTS are just toys in the world of RE :)


Now here is a suggestion for a not too hard project to get you on the way, I'm doing the same project but my with work time fixing gearbox's I aint got to much time to my RE projects.


            Ok go grab a 2HP 4 pole 3 phase motor, Grab 8 off 2x1x1/2" neos and make a cheap but efficitive motor conversion. This link http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=1390&PN=1&TPN=2


is Dinges doing some fine cad work for my own 2hp conversion along the same lines.


 A downwind HAWT machine wont detract from pesky neigbours and they will probably ask what it is with the veiw if your saving power without a huge tower it could workout.


Lastly welcome to the FL forum and get into IRC mate where alot of questions can be easily answered quickly.


Regards Bryan

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 12:49:06 AM by ruddycrazy »

Texas Wood

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 01:36:55 AM »
Thanks everyone for your helpful words, but as I said before a VAWT is all I can "get away with" in my neighborhood. We have rather strict restrictions on what you can and can't build. I simply can't put a HAWT windmill on a pole anywhere within view of another neighbor and the other restriction of being clear of any structures limits where it can be placed on my other 2 lots.


I've weighed all the options and I done quite a bit of research on VAWT's and I don't mind if I have to make several to get up to my power requirements. If this works I may be able to sell the neighborhood on the idea. Most of the property owners have unused areas of land on the backside of there lots that back up to cattle property for a distance then more rows of homes.


Why is it that you guys are so against Vertical Axis? Heck even Jay Leno has a few of them at his massive garage to help offset his astronomical utility bills. One architect/developer in Chicago has been instrumental in retrofitting large VAWT's simply laid down on there sides along the roof line of many downtown buildings that have been renovated and upgraded for "Green" standards.


My primary reason for using VAWT's is so that I can build them near the ground and create an inclosure for extreme weather events. I know for a fact that trying to take down a 30+ foot high Windmill in anything but calm conditions could be disastrous and I know that I would be forced to do it alone as my parents are elderly and most likely would get hurt. Leaving a windmill up in 140+ MPH winds is just asking God to come take it away from you. And once it breaks free it becomes a liability flying through the air!


So I guess then a few of my questions still remain unanswered. Can you guys point me in the right direction on books that can be purchased locally that won't break the bank? I realize I'd probably be reading a ton of info to get caught up to speed but I didn't know where to begin to look.


Thanks again,

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 01:36:55 AM by Texas Wood »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 06:03:13 AM »
VAWTs are mostly devices sold to people who believe the sales brochures.


The size of the normal styles of VAWT required to make 100W is very large.  

A well done 3' dia HAWT can make over 100W.  The 8' tall Harbor Freight garden windmill is 28" dia, so 36" dia is not a whole lot larger.


I doubt you will find a book with a VAWT design meeting the requirements, locally or otherwise.  Like Ron said, if you find one that works, let us know.


Windstuffnow Ed's 'Lenz2' is probably the best place to start for a real working VAWT.  It is not quite what most people have in mind when they want a VAWT.


There is very little power available close to the ground.  Might get some kind of wind speed data logging device set up where you plan on placing a VAWT and see what kind of power is available.

G-

 

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 06:03:13 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

thefinis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 06:05:16 AM »
Travis welcome


Go to windstuffnow.com Ed has the best plans efficiency wise for a vawt. Gizmo has a site in Australia thebackshed.com where several vawts based on Ed's design have been built and used. How big are you trying to go with each vawt? The bigger the diameter the slower the already slow turning vawt will go. In using Ed's plan you get a large surface that can be painted so it looks like moving yard art. Best to use three blades. I do not know how much power "you" might get from one or more but if done right it will work great as ads/art and allow you to play even with the restrictions.


There are lots of things that can be done with rotating power besides making electricity. Sorry but all that hoopla on tv about the little vawts powering buildings seems to fail in the real world. They might make fair battery chargers if all you are doing is opening gates/doors and running a few lights intermittently.


I like big so for now I am basing mine on 4x8 sheets and they make power it is just getting it to electricity that seems problematic. Working on a hydraulic transmission gearbox (something else not popular). One thing that often gets overlooked here is even if the turbine is inefficient if you have room and materials just build it bigger for needed output. hawts on a big tower are limited by cost of tower to support weight and size. This limits their ability to go bigger to offset poor efficiency.


You can email me direct if I can help but really these guys are just pointing out reality. Sometimes though the reality is you are limited/restricted to a narrow range of options. Do a google search for vawt topics here and check out the files of persons of intrest (it is where we store the pics for posts).


Take care

Finis

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 06:05:16 AM by thefinis »

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3122
  • Country: ca
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 06:22:24 AM »
there are a few of us here that like vertical windmills Texas wood.

they were rejected by most as being too inefficient.


there are a lots of types, drag or lift.


the big problem is the amount of swept area required to pull the same amount of power as a hawt.

if you can get past that, then things are wide open .

everything you could ever imagine in regards to permanent magnet alternators can be found on this forum.

if you want to go vertical just be prepared to run perhaps four times the number of poles and/or finer wire.


check out a member,  windstuff ed (ed lenze

i would say the most advanced, knowledgeable,  builder and proponent.


there is a forum for verticals

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 06:22:24 AM by electrondady1 »

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 07:51:47 AM »
 A>Go ahead and spend a 1500 on solar and batteries put it on a card or get a little loan and make a power house for such that gets you goin .

 B>The other alternative is a good sized dc motor in the 100 volt range that can be used for a quck getset now and in your shop ( with a brush change as you get further along in the business . A good battery bank is a good start also Sam's would be a good shopping spot .

You can prety much nix a 12 volt system as by the time you get invested 24 or 48 will be standard for logical reasons .

 C>Some cheapo 12 volt inverters are good to have in the shop so you could run some lights and fans etc . 450 watt or better 450 will run 5 or 6 19 (75)watt curls without a problem . 2 200 AH batts from Sams  in the back of your truck to keep topped off and a 800watt inverter will get you started to get a feel for livin off battery power .
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 07:51:47 AM by tecker »

hvirtane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
    • About Solar Cooking
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 08:47:26 AM »
the big problem (of a VAWT) is the amount of swept area required to pull the same amount of power as a hawt.


Fortunately the above is not true.


As I have told many times on this site, the current knowledge says that if a VAWT is built well the difference is actually small.


The correct chart comparing different types of wind machines is below:





The above chart is wrong in most books about wind power, which people are reading. The correct chart and explanation of the error is available in the the very good book by Gary Johnson, which can be downloaded here:


http://eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/


I agree with the others that 'WindstuffEd' is the man on this board, who knows about building vertical axis wind machines.


There are not many vertical axis wind machines available commercially. But you can buy them as well ready made. There are available Chinese Darrieus type machines, there are Finnish helical Savonius machines and some others.


Any kind of wind machine will probably work much better, if you'll place it quite high above the ground.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 08:47:26 AM by hvirtane »

fungus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 09:36:42 AM »
Here's just a quick idea of size etc ..


In a 20mph wind, to get only about 2kw in ideal conditions, you'll need 15 square metres of swept area. With a HAWT , you'll need about 4.4 metres diameter, which is about 15 feet diameter .. With a VAWT, to get the same surface area, you'll need one about 3 meters by 5 meters, so 10ft wide by 16ft tall ..

In that 20mph (9 m/s) , you have a 3 meter diameter, so about 9 meters circumference.

The tip speed ratio (the ratio of the speed the tips going through the air to the wind speed) is (from memory) about 1 loaded for a lenz2 turbine, so you'll have the tips going at 20mph or 9m/s, so you've got 1 revolution per second, which equates to only 60rpm, which really isn't that much, considering it's in a 20mph (clean, it'll be a lot less in gusty winds), and you want to be making 2kw. Also, an assembly 10ft diameter, by 16ft tall, is going to be heavy , which will both effect raising it into the air and the time it'll take to spin up ..

Also, at startup speed of about 7mph (about 3m/s) you'll only have it going at 20rpm, which is a pretty tiny speed ..

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:36:42 AM by fungus »

spinningmagnets

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 600
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 10:27:28 AM »
Dear Hannu, I like VAWT's, but I remain skeptical about their ability to generate power in a cost-effective way compared to HAWTs. That being said...


I understand the frustration of enthusiasts who are not allowed to have a high-speed turbine on a 60' tower, and a VAWT "might" be better than nothing.


If Greg Johnson is correct, it appears from the chart that a Darrieus with a TSR of 4-5 would be the best possible style? VAWT's are so easy to play with, so there are hundreds of examples on the web, could you please point me to a link with an example of the style of VAWT you now believe is the best configuration?


Thanks in advance.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 10:27:28 AM by spinningmagnets »

hvirtane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
    • About Solar Cooking
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 01:11:29 PM »
I don't think it is easy to build yourself any high speed Darrieus. It is not easy to make it strong.


I would recommend something like a slow speed Savonius.


You might try making something like Windside turbines. But not many people have made this kind of machines 'at home'. So there is not much available experience. I know nearby only one such man.


http://www.windside.com/technical.html


Maybe easiest to do something similar as other people, who are writing on this board, have done

Something like WindstuffEd's Lenz turbine.


http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/lenz2_turbine.htm

http://www.palebludot.com/2008/01/08/ed-lenzs-wind-turbine-powered-home/


As you know vertical axis wind machines are not popular among people on this board.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 01:11:29 PM by hvirtane »

hvirtane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
    • About Solar Cooking
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 01:23:21 PM »
As told there are now some Chinese manufacturers making Darrieus machines. An example:


http://www.getpower.cn/products_list.asp?id_product=261&name_product=VAWT1%2D300


Of course it is not impossible to make something similar. But I don't know anybody, who has made it.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 01:23:21 PM by hvirtane »

vawtman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 05:14:35 PM »
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 05:14:35 PM by vawtman »

CmeBREW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 615
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM »
I have to agree with young Fungus.  I also share the frustration you are talking about.  Right when I was beginning to get courageous, I recently heard the county next to mine just prohibited ALL home windmills without ANY exception.  And it is way out in the country with the farms and cows!  


Over the summer, a guy stopped by to talk about the little Vawt I was experimenting with in my yard. He told me that years ago a guy not too far off had built a 30 foot DIAMETER Savonious Vawt the size of a Carnival ride Carrousal!  He said it put out a few hundred watts in low winds.  Unfortunetly, the neihbors thought it was an eye-sore and kept complaining to the county and after lawsuit threats eventually forced him to shut it down-- even though legally they couldn't make him take it apart.


He said it is still there all rusted and not allowed to move.  The maker of it left it there to spite the neihbors. I wish I had asked him the address so I could take a picture of it and meet the guy. I didn't think of it at the time. Sounds like something everyone here would like to see.  I will if the other guy comes back.


I suspect that Big Vawts are really tough to even get one third the power of a similar size hawt in LOW winds under 15mph, which is what happens by far the most.


If you do try it, you MUST have a very BIG efficient alternator to get some decent power out of a VAWT. Even if you have to gear up 5:1 or whatever,,,make sure the alternator is giant with 1/4th ohm or less resistance in the coils.


BTW, I read that Leno also has over $100,000 worth of quality solar panels on the roof of his big shop.


I love Vawts too, but after experimenting with them for two years,  I find they have many more limitations than hawts and are more heavy and apt to blow apart in high winds since they have big blades.  And as Ghurd say, there is less clean flowing, power producing  wind at ground level or even 10 ft up.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM by CmeBREW »

Texas Wood

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 11:38:44 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input. I've decided to learn all I can over this winter and play around with some ideas I have concerning alternator design and then decide what the best course of action will be from there. Again thanks for you help. Later Travis
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 11:38:44 PM by Texas Wood »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2008, 12:12:29 AM »
Don't get overwhelmed and give up.  Keep reading.


Things start falling into place pretty soon, then the next things fall into place faster and faster.

G-

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:12:29 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2866
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2008, 05:51:28 PM »
Building a Darrieus that will both operate at all and operate safely for years is difficult.


For starters, consider starting:  Look at the power curve at low TSR:  A Darrieus already has to be spinning faster than the wind to collect power.  It has essentially no starting torque except when the blades are at a particular narrow range of angles to the wind, so a straight-bladed Darrieus usually needs something to push it to get it going.  (But you can't count on it to safely NOT start from the wind.)  (The spiral designs, and perhaps those with three or more blades, may self-start.)


Notice the tip speed ratio in the 4 to 6 region.  Imagine that mill spinning in 100 MPH hurricaine winds.  The blades will be moving at several hundred MPH, perhaps trying to break the sound barrier.  Even at lower winds those suckers are really moving - and presenting a narrow leading edge.  Sort of like swinging an oar so it hits edge-on.  Not something you want to walk into - or have birds, housepets, or neighbor kids do the same.  And you need a strong structure to hold the blades into a circular path against the centrifugal effect.


The wind load on an efficient turbine is nearly that on a solid wall with the same cross-section to the wind as that swept by the blades.  A Darrieus is a very spinly thing, with narrow blades.  So that force is very concentrated.  And (unlike with a horizontal-axis machine) the force reverses direction twice per revolution.  Imagine that massive force flexing the blades back-and-forth several times a minute for years.  This is a recipe for material fatigue.


Result:  Darrieus mills tend to come apart - usually while operating in a high wind - sending chunks flying at several hundred MPH.  Not something you want near your house or your neighbor's yard.


= = = =


Now consider a Savonius:


The diagram shows a peak efficiency of about .3 - but that's for a classic Savonius:  Two half-cylinders overlapping by about 50%.  Sandia labs did an optimized blade profile that they patented (now expired), which they claim does about .37 - nearly the .42 or so of a Darrieus.


Notice that the peak is at a TSR of about 1.  The edge of the mill is moving at about the speed of the wind, not several times as fast.  Much safer.  The profile is also curved so it tends to push out things that reach in slowly, as opposed to being hit by a blade edge.


The structure of a Savonius - classic or Sandia - is quite strong.  The blades are large so the wind forces are distributed over a lot of area.  Spinning slowly means it doesn't need a lot of strength to hang together.  And it's self-starting.


The major downside (as with all VAWTs) is the slow rotation speed.  The amount of power you can get out of a given arrangement of magnets and coils goes up with the speed.  So you need to do one of three things:

 - Build an alternator with a LOT of magnets and coils.

 - Build an alternator with a large diameter.

 - Come up with some kind of speed-changer (gearbox, belts, bicycle chains and sprockets, or fricton-drive tire) to spin the alternator much faster than the rotor.


The minor downside is that with less efficiency than other mills you have to build it bigger to collect a given amount of power.  This also means it's hard to raise it up to where the wind is decent.  (In your case you're stuck with it being at ground level so your answer is make it - or several of them - large.)


= = = =


Ed Lenz (on this board) has come up with another style of VAWT which has characteristics similar to (but apparently somewhat better than) the Savonius.  It consists of three curved wing/bucket vanes and one instance had a measured average efficiency of .365 over a range of wind speeds and loadings - as compared with the claimed - and probably narrow - peak of .370 for the Sandia design.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 05:51:28 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2866
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2008, 06:00:27 PM »
Is that carousel wind turbine on a house just west of 101 somewhere north of Marin in California?  Looks like a bunch of 55-galon drums cut in half (or so) and assembled into a giant squirrelcage?


I've seen that running - then seen it stopped.  Wondered what had happened to it.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 06:00:27 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

CmeBREW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 615
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2008, 08:29:25 PM »
ULR-  

No, not California.  It's in Ohio. If I recall correctly, I believe he said it was made like you said with half barrels -- but it was down at ground level. The guy who was talking to me had talked to the maker/owner. I thought he said it used a tractor transmission that hooked to a giant DC PM motor.


The guy who told me is one of our Local family business customers. I remember his face and small truck.  When he comes back again I will ask him where it is and I'll take pictures and here the story directly from the guy.  It is a very bold attempt for RE-usable energy from a Vawt though.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 08:29:25 PM by CmeBREW »

thefinis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2008, 05:49:56 AM »
Glad to see you are still around and kicking Mark. I had not seen you posting lately.


Finis

« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 05:49:56 AM by thefinis »

vawtman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2008, 11:55:45 AM »
Howdy Finis

 Ya, i'm still kickin yet.Gettin there one kick at a time.How bout you?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 11:55:45 AM by vawtman »

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2008, 11:12:59 AM »
In a costal environment any vawt is desirable because it's going to stay under control in a storm . The wind is preasent most of the time so a fairly lsrge vawt would be perfect .
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 11:12:59 AM by tecker »

valterra

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2008, 02:27:53 PM »
"As I have told many times on this site"


The VAWT crowd (which includes most slick sales flyers tha I've seen) sure do a lot of "telling."  


Unfortunately there isn't  a lot of DOING.  Most VAWT stuff focuses on how neato it looks.  To quote the famous commercial, Where's the Beef?


The original poster said that the proven, relatively inexpensive design of an HAWT isn't  possible where he lives, and seems to be willing to throw countless sums of money into avoidance of the reality that real wind power is therefore not available to him.


Truth be told, he would be better served in his case to take the dollars he intends to spend on Yard Art and instead use it to pay his electricity bill far into the future.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 02:27:53 PM by valterra »

Todd a

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2008, 06:37:30 AM »
So many people knock down VAWT, but I think they are great.  I am sorry, but I think they have many great advantages.  The big thing is they do not spin as fast.  This has many advantages, but also a disadvantage.  They are typically much smaller diameter and with the slower RPMs the outside edge is going just a fraction of the speed of a HAWT.  This makes them easier to balance to.  With the better balance and lower RPMs they are much quieter.  This also makes it a bit easier to make smaller ones roof mounted.  The big disadvantage is they are not really made for high RPMs, this means you need a generator designed for even lower RPMs that a HAWT or you will need to use a gearbox or belt to increase the generator's RPM.


The biggest advantage is the area it takes up though.  There are quite a few retail ones if you look here:


http://www.allsmallwindturbines.com/


You take something like this S322 Wind Turbine...


http://www.helixwind.com/en/product.php#s594specs


It makes 2500w and is 4' x 8.66'.  That makes it cover an area of about 110 cubic feet.  If you look at a typical 2.5kw HAWT you are looking at about a 16 foot wind turbine.  That covers an area of about 2200 cubic feet.  Now you are talking about 10 times the area.  The only disadvantage I saw with the VAWT was a slightly higher cut-in speed of 4 vs 3 for the VAWT.  Now if they both do say 150RPM the VAWT at the tip is doing whopping 21mph.  On that nice 16 foot HAWT the tip speed is a massive 85MPH.  Think also that this HAWT is flexing and spinning and is something goes wrong it will basically explode.  This HelixWind is all aluminum, does not flex, only has one axis, can handle MUCH faster winds, and while dangerous, is nothing like a HAWT.  If for some reason the blades fail, they will not explode. This VAWT is only 135kg too.  Well maybe this is not a main stream HAWT.  Lets try the smaller Skystream 3.7.  Most of us have heard of this one (there is one about 15 miles from my house).  It is a 12 foot HAWT rated for 1.8kw.  Even at only 1.8kw it is still a massive 900+ cubic feet area and weighs 170kg.  It also has a tip speed (off their website) of 213 ft/s (or 145MPH).  This might be the max rated though, but still I have seen pictures of even tiny HAWT that expoded in a storm and put a chunk of blade through the solid wood back door of a house.  They litterally explode when they come apart.


Maybe when you are talking really big wind power that a HAWT is more efficient.  Then again they are planning a monstrously tall building in Dubai again and this one will have a massive VAWT spire on the top.  Maybe they chose it just for looks, but likely it was for noise and safety.  The coolest thing about ones like this HelixWind set-up is you can mount them on the sides and tops of buildings.  The wind around large buildings in the city can be extremely strong.  say you take a 10 story building and put 5 of these on each corner (one for each of the top 5 floors) and throw another 10 on the roof and you have a total of 30 2.5kw wind turbines on a 10 story building.  With the strong winds I would see no reason why you would not be in the 1-2.5kw range each most of the year in places like Chicago.  That would be a nice 30-75kw of power.  At 300 pounds each this would add almost nothing to the weight of the building.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 06:37:30 AM by Todd a »

spinningmagnets

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 600
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2008, 10:42:26 AM »
Dear Todd-a, Thanks for the Helixwind S322 link. It is interesting.


You've stated it makes 2500-Watts (by a 4' X 8-1/2' VAWT), and its clear why that would sound impressive. I have never owned one of these models, but based on quite a bit of reading from various wind-gen owners, the 2500-Watt rating is grossly overstated.


The unit looks well-made, but expensive. I would not risk any money for a VAWT that is almost certain to rarely reach cut-in during 10 MPH winds. I am a fan of VAWT's, but the cost/actual-payback of something like this would point me towards a bigger solar PV array/battery.


I am certain I could build a large "Lenz2" for less than 1/10th the cost of the S322. If I'm going to be disappointed with a projects output, I'd rather have some fun and save some money, too.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 10:42:26 AM by spinningmagnets »

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2008, 11:15:31 AM »
Not sure where those numbers came from.  Area of Cubic Feet?

That VAWT has about the same swept area as a 2 meter diameter HAWT, or 34.6 square feet.


I notice an absence of any output numbers related to anything solid.

Unless 340W in 20 MPH, 24/7, for a year.  Which isn't very impressive compared to a decent 2 meter HAWT.

G-

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 11:15:31 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Todd a

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2008, 07:31:53 PM »
All retail packages are way too expensive... of course some include the grid tie inverter and all the other bells and whistles.


One other draw back of most VAWT is the blade layout on something like a 3 blade system results in pulsing of power.  That is why some went to a helix design.


I think the start-up speed is likely because their design is pretty heavy.  A lighter material would have help spin it up.  The thing is this is really more suited for building tops, lake fronts, or hills where strong constant winds are present.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:31:53 PM by Todd a »

Todd a

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: New to this please, I need just a little help!
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2008, 08:04:26 PM »
I was referring to cubic feet, not square feet.  If you look at a 4'x8.5' turbine you have a 4 diameter for a 12.56 square foot ground area and a height of 8.5' for a cubic feet area of 106.76 cubic feet.  Now a 12 foot wind turbine has a pretty large propeller area of 113.04 square feet, but remember this thing rotates.  Not only that, but the generator is actually off set by a bit.  I only calculated it as a sphere (4/3 x 3.14 x r^3) which is 904.32 cubic feet.


Now you could look at efficiency based on the surface area of the blades.  VAWT can have a huge amount of surface area for the wind to blow against.  Like I have said though, VAWT generally has a much lower TSR so it does not spin at the massive RPMs.  This requires a bit more thought into the generator or gearing.  It might be only 30-40% efficient, and a HAWT might be 50-60% efficient, but the VAWT might have 5 times the surface area for the same cost and size.


This is a video of the HelixWind in testing...


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zkJiNNLOuow


I still prefer the hybrid VAWT for better start-up and high speed characteristics, like this one...


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CkIX3_O8sWg&feature=related

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 08:04:26 PM by Todd a »