Author Topic: Blade Calculations  (Read 2648 times)

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MacGyverCanada

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Blade Calculations
« on: December 07, 2008, 12:48:34 AM »
Would someone run these numbers for me, please?  Does this seem reasonable?


Area

2 square meters


Hub to Tip

0.80m


Target RPM = 200 at 15km/h windspeed (4.17m/s)


Target Tip Speed = 16.75m/s

Target Root Speed (@ 0.20m) = 4.20m/s

TSR = 4


Tip angle = 9 degrees

Root angle = 40 degrees (@ 0.20m)

Total twist = 31 degrees

« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:48:34 AM by (unknown) »

scoraigwind

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2008, 12:38:03 AM »
You speeds look about right but the angles are too steep.  You should be around 5 degrees at the tip, and 30 degrees at the 20 cm point you mention.  


The twist is not linear.  It will be a smaller angle than you would expect based on linear twist.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:38:03 AM by scoraigwind »
Hugh Piggott scoraigwind.co.uk

SparWeb

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 04:22:43 PM »
Here's how I check the numbers:


atan(1/4) = 14.0 degrees (incident angle of wind at the tip)

atan(1/1) = 45.0 degrees (incident angle of wind at the root)


Assume you want a 5.0 degree positive angle of attack when operating at the design speed.


tip: 14-5 = 9 degrees (blade incidence for desired speed)

root: 45-5=40 degrees (blade incidence for desired speed)


[blackboard=ON]


Hugh's opinion is that the angles should be flatter. This comes from a subtle awareness that the wind actually slows down as it passes through the prop.  Considering this, the blades see incident wind angles lower than if you just use the free-stream wind speed.



Assume that the prop absorbs 33% of the energy from the wind.  That means that from start to finish, the change in wind speed through the disk is sqrt(1-0.33)=0.82.  The wind speed leaving the windmill is therefore 82% of the free wind speed.  The disk is 1/2 way between the undisturbed wind ahead, and the slowed wind behind.  A good wind speed to use, therefore, is about 1/2 the change in speed, or 91%.


Recalculate on that basis and you get different angles.  The trouble you get into with analyzing the prop this way, is that the power coefficient (that 33% I pulled out of the air) is a moving target.  At cut-in, the Cp is different, and hard to predict if it's higher or lower than 33%.  A very rough prop may never achieve 33%.  A very well designed and built prop may stay around 40 or 50% through a wide range of wind speeds.


[blackboard=OFF]


Hope I didn't drown you there.  Once you dive into the numbers game, it can get complicated really quick!  I've been immersed in this stuff all weekend due to a question a fellow board member asked me last week.  Finally I have telemetry from my windmill that lets me crunch the numbers to this end.  Not done yet, but you asked your question at an opportune time.  Class dismissed.


Your angles look okay, as long as your generator will work effectively at that range of speeds.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 04:22:43 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 04:27:48 PM »
Oh, another point I wanted to make is that you can use a higher angle of attack (flatter blade angle) so that the prop will stall-regulate itself in high winds.  I know that the max L/D ratio may be around 5 degrees for the airfoil you have chosen, but in reality, in strong winds you don't need to be at max-L/D.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 04:27:48 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

scoraigwind

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 01:02:42 AM »
According to the Betz analysis that I was taught, you can prove that the speed of the wind through the rotor plane is half way between the upwind speed and the downwind speed.


The change of speed is one factor in the energy extraction (change of kinetic energy per unit of mass), but the other is the speed through the rotor as this determines how much actual mass flow you are getting.


If you work out the optimum energy extraction it will occur when the speed in the wake is 1/3, and the speed through the rotor is then 2/3 of the upwind free windspeed V.


Under those circs you get 59.3 % capture of the theoretical energy blowing through the machine (available if you did not affect it in any way).  100% is impossible because when you slow it down you lose some of the flow of mass through the rotor.


I try to design for the optimum 'loading' where you slow the wind down to 1/3 in the wake, and then I assume that I am successful at the same time.  It's a bit of a rough approach but it works pretty well.


It would not be a good idea to reduce the windspeed to 82% of the upwind speed.  That is a misunderstanding and would extract only a very small amount of energy.


My analysis does not take into account 'tip loss' so it is by no means the ultimate in blade design but it does work very well for practical purposes.


I hope this helps


some links

http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/betz.htm

http://www.windpower.org/en/stat/betzpro.htm

http://www.windmission.dk/workshop/BasicBladeDesign/bladedesign.html


best wishes

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 01:02:42 AM by scoraigwind »
Hugh Piggott scoraigwind.co.uk

jimovonz

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 02:13:59 PM »
Hugh,


I find your comment confusing:


It would not be a good idea to reduce the windspeed to 82% of the upwind speed.  That is a misunderstanding and would extract only a very small amount of energy.


In your link above: http://www.windpower.org/en/stat/betzpro.htm they present a graph of P/Po vs V2/V1 (efficiency vs proportion of wind velocity after and before the turbine)





As per SparWebs example, an efficiency of 0.33 correlates well with a V2/V1 of 0.82


Could you please explain further?

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 02:13:59 PM by jimovonz »

scoraigwind

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 02:37:36 PM »
I think it explains itself.  If you want to get the maximum efficiency possible (which is 59.3% of the power flowing through the rotor area) then you should reduce the speed to 1/3.  This is not the same as extracting 1/3 of the power.  So the 0.82 figure is still a red herring.  I don't think I can state it much more clearly.  


I suspect that you are confusing efficiency and velocity or something.  Or I am missing something perhaps.


One more time - Betz discovered that (in theory and simplifying a lot of stuff) the best you can do is to get 59.3% of the power in the wind.  This can be achieved by slowing the wind down to 1/3 of its upstream velocity.  As part of this proof he also proved that the speed in the rotor plane is half way between the upwind speed and the wake speed.  Hence in this case 2/3 of the upwind speed.


We are not talking about an efficiency of 1/3 at any stage of the argument.


I hope this helps?

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 02:37:36 PM by scoraigwind »
Hugh Piggott scoraigwind.co.uk

jimovonz

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 03:14:50 PM »
Hugh,


Sorry, my confusion was not at Betz's findings but rather your asertion that slowing the air velocity from its unimpeded speed down to 0.82 of that speed through the turbine (as in SparWebs example) would result in very little energy capture.


I think SparWeb was using an arbitary figure for Cp of 0.33 as a reasonable estimation of actual blade performance rather than implying that 1/3 was any sort of significant figure.


From the Graph I posted, the Betz maximum of 59% at a v2/v1 of 0.33 is apparent, but so too is Sparwebs figure of 33% at a v2/v1 of 0.82.


In the scheme of things, 33% would not seem to be a 'very small amount of energy'


I understand that from a design point of view, you would look to obtain the maximum possible and accordingly use the Betz figure of 59% with a air speed of 2/3 at the turbine (being the average of the wind speed of 1 before and 1/3 after the turbine).


I do not mean to be argumentative here and am only looking to better my understanding and perhaps others.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 03:14:50 PM by jimovonz »

SparWeb

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2008, 12:36:12 AM »
Hi Hugh & Jim,


Here I seem to have sent this thread off in an unexpected direction.  I think I was splitting hairs, there, but you took me seriously anyway.

This is perhaps a better explanation of what I was talking about:


Although capturing energy from the wind up to the Betz limit is a lofty goal, it is very difficult to do, and not a realistic one for the amateur builder.


My windmill has a high TSR at cut-in.  The corresponding Cp is pretty high.  As the wind speed increases, the blades turn faster, but the generator load also increases.  The TSR goes down, and so does the Cp.  At wind speeds around 10 m/sec, the Cp is about 30% and the TSR is 6.5.  My design TSR was 6.  Obviously not a perfect windmill, but it's actually better than I expected.  I can make these assertions because I have logged data from my wind mill and anemometer.  To be honest, the data is not very good, but the trends are pretty obvious.


My point is that at cut-in, I see high Cp, but that's hardly a useful design criterion.  There is little power to be captured there, anyway.  At higher wind speeds, the TSR will drop, bringing the Cp down with it.  There's not much you can do about it.  Fundamentally, increasing the CL of an airfoil brings with it an increased CD.  The best one can do is improve surface smoothness, carve twist for even span-wise loading, and pay attention to details like nose cones, reflex angles of incidence at the tips, and fragile sharp trailing edges, and so on.


So when I replied to the original post, I just picked Cp=33% because it's a number that's realistic for me.  If I was trying to make a model of the wind on my machine, that's what I'd use.  Since Cp implies that 1-0.33 = 67% energy is captured, I just quickly estimated that the output wind speed would be sqrt(1-0.33) = 82% of the free wind speed.  Then I split the difference between the start and finish, to find the wind speed at the blade itself.  


You were suggesting that the wind speed out the back can be reduced by sqrt(1-0.597)=63% of the free wind speed, and hence 80% wind speed is present at the blade airfoil.  That isn't likely to happen because operating at both the design TSR and the max Cp possible during the design wind speed is very difficult to achieve.


There is nothing wrong nor dangerous in designing for a higher Cp than you are likely to achieve, because it's a lot like designing for too-high TSR.  The ultimate result is a higher lift coefficient, higher drag, and a slower blade, that may actually stall-regulate (a bit).  This makes the tail's job easier, so the windmill is safer.


Thank you Hugh and Jim for the engaging discussion of this topic, because I was ignorant of these facts up until not long ago, and built blades last year that, luckly, aren't too far "out of whack".

« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 12:36:12 AM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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SparWeb

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 01:53:49 PM »
Now I've done it!  

I used a square-root where I needed a cube root.  Power is proporitonal to the cube of velocity, not the square.  I didn't even catch the error when I elaborated upon it!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 01:53:49 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

scoraigwind

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 03:37:21 PM »
I was never assuming that I could achieve 59.3% efficiency (Coefficient of performance/Cp).  In the real world that is not going to happen for a number of reasons including drag forces.  But you can probably get the best efficiency by  reducing the wind to 1/3 x V in any case, so that is my design target.  Doing that is not the same as achieving 59% efficiency but it probably helps to get the Cp as high as possible.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 03:37:21 PM by scoraigwind »
Hugh Piggott scoraigwind.co.uk

MacGyverCanada

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 05:24:19 PM »
Wow guys.  Now don't get me wrong, I definitely appreciate the input!  But if you guys were to see my plans as far as materials and design aspirations, I think you'd all have a good laugh.   :)


Because these little homebuilt towers don't have blades that gimble, isn't the angle of the blades sort of arbitrary anyway?  Won't the ideal angles change with the windspeed?  You can certainly design the blades for the area's average windspeed, but I just pulled the value of 15km/h for windspeed out of the air ( hey pun! hey pun! ).  I don't have an anemometer to check it out, anyway.  


But I'm okay with geometric math, so I'll try running my own numbers again based on all this juicy info on windspeed loss over the turbine.  I'll repost when it's done.  Thanks for the expertise everyone, it's nice to have such a powerful knowledge resource!


ps - If you'ew curious, I'll be posting my blade materials ides as "PVC Airfoil Experiment"

« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 05:24:19 PM by MacGyverCanada »

SparWeb

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 01:53:30 PM »
Here's the equation that relates the variables together.



where

v1 is the wind speed,

va is the speed the blades actually see, and

Cp is the power coefficient, not to exceed 0.593


Unfortunately the equation is funny cubic thing that can't be solved to go "va=###"


So you might as well just read the graph that Jim posted above or make a table of values.  To dive deeper, you can read through the reference manual of http://www.windpower.org/en/core.htm

« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 01:53:30 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

shukry

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Re: Blade Calculations
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2008, 06:46:53 AM »
View this site there is a usefull program:

http://www.partenovcfd.com
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 06:46:53 AM by shukry »