Author Topic: Blade question  (Read 2420 times)

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fabricator

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Blade question
« on: May 03, 2009, 10:10:40 PM »
I am building a 17' mill, I often read that the twist is limited by the thickness of the lumber, I have access to any thickness lumber I want and I have a 24" planer, will more twist make enough of a difference to offset the added carving work? If so how much is enough? And where the heck could I find such numbers?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:10:40 PM by (unknown) »
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11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

marv

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 07:11:57 PM »
Fabricator,  Here is a link to a well used blade calculator.

 http://www.alton-moore.net/wind_calculations.html

and another

http://www.warlock.com.au/bladecalc-abstract.htm

Marv.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 07:11:57 PM by marv »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2009, 10:34:54 PM »
Remember that:

 - the farther in on the blade

 - the less swept area per unit of lenghth

 - so the less power per unit length.


The inner quarter of the blades collct 1/16th of the power (while the outer quarter collect 7/16ths - nearly half of it.


As you get really near the hub the optimum shape gets very long and very angled - requiring a lot of wood - while the amount of power collected drops to nearly zero.  So when the shape the calculators tell you to make starts getting really long as you approach the axis you might as well stop bothering - optimizing its length, getting its angle right or even having it be an air foil at all (in order of progressively less ideal).  If you stop at 1/8th of the radius and just turn it into a solid block you throw away 1/32 of the power - about 3%.  Not all that big a deal.


Now there is another reason to continue moderately far in toward the hub:


The blades have a lot of torque while they're spinning at roughly the design TSR (which will be in the ballpark of 6).  All the parts of the "twisted" blade are seeing the same angle-of-attack from the "apparent wind" (the vector sum of the real wind with the wind from their motion).  The air is all attached, all the sections of the blade have lots of lift pulling them both downwind and around the circle, producing lots of torque.


But when the wind first starts and the blades aren't moving yet the "apparent wind" is just the actual wind.  Out near the tips the blade is nearly flat-on to it.  So you get lots of drag but virtually no torque.  You need something to start it.  But near the hub, if you continued your twist, you have a section that's at a more reasonable angle to the wind.  This acts as a sail, much like the designs we (loosely and improperly) sometimes refer to as "drag turbines".  Think "air screw" (versus "worm gear working backward" for the ends of the blades).  While it's not operating in the way the shape was designed to fly, it DOES deflect the wind in a way that produces a reasonable amount of torque.  So it's great for starting.


If you have an airfoil section there, it's good to have it at the proper twist angle.  That way once the blade is running at the design TSR it's not acting as an air brake and fighting the rest of the turbine.  But it's not as important to make it as long as the optimum chord length for the slower wind it "sees".  If the inner 1/8 is only collecting 3% of the available power, making it shorter than optimum so it only collects, say, 2% means you've only lost 1/100th of the power you could have collected.


One other thing the longer chord length, more closely alligned with the axis, does is provide strength against the forces trying to fold the blades back against the generator.  You're slowing the air down to about 1/3 its previous speed and this shows up as drag, trying to bend the blades backward.  Yet you're only supporting the blades at the very center.  The blades are a very long lever, greatly magnifying the bending stresses near the axis, so the stress is greatest there.  Having the blades thick in the along-axis direction at that region strengthens the blades against this stress.  But again there's no point in using a BUNCH of wood (most of which ends up as shavings) just to make that section REALLY LONG.  Just make it somewhat thick and call it a plan.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:34:54 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Dave B

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2009, 11:39:22 PM »
 Keep in mind that it makes a huge difference what your application (load) is as to matching your blade profile and performance.


 It is often stated here that there is basically no use in carving large twist at the root because there is little power to be had at the root or inner third of the blade length.


 If you are charging batteries and running (un-loaded) until cut-in then it is very hard to justify the large twist at the root. All you see is when the blades are turning, therefore once turning at speed it's assumed all is well as long as charging is indicated OK. True, and very unlikely that many will care or take the time to realize how much more power could be generated with more twist at the root even when charging speed is reached. Say nothing of how much quicker and in less wind the blades would reach cut-in speed with the added torque starting up.


 The relatively flat, minimal twist blades mostly carved here work and so not too many have the desire to carve blades otherwise. This along with the fact that it does require more work and material is why you see very few carving blades in this way.


 The calculators show what they show for a reason. Even a flat board mounted at an angle will spin up to speed un-loaded but the closer you carve your blades to what the calculators show the more power you will have for a given TSR.


 Is it worth it ? I say yes, call it stuborn or stupid but I've never liked easy and good enough. Dave B.    

« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 11:39:22 PM by Dave B »
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oztule s

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 02:18:14 AM »
Hi Dave,

I agree and disagree with you on this one. If (as you did) you use a resistive element in the mix, then a good root area is a must for starting. For battery charging (as you pointed out), it seems less than a necessity..... however, read this... http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/10/4/11507/7016 and you will see that perhaps it has more to do with the wind regime.


In this case, the non-sexy blades worked better than the original well formed ones.


If the wind was less useful.... then perhaps  I would be swaying towards your call, but so far this is the only comparison I have in the real world. At this stage... over here.... repeat over here, the simple blades worked just as well, and in fact out performed the originals in seat of the pants testing.... in a less windy sight, I think you may have the edge.


Your argument makes sense, but I'm not sure just how much, and in what wind regime.


Maybe, make the blades a few inches longer, and easier to carve, and it will cancel out...... these blades were the same length in this instance.


Later on, we rewound the stator (corrosion in the stator and 90 damn coils), and shortened the blades (3" due to excessive blade erosion) and did considerably better in the higher winds.


Jury 's still out for me...


..........oztules

« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 02:18:14 AM by oztule s »

fabricator

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 04:22:57 AM »
Fantastic replys thank you all very much, it is beginning to dawn on me now.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:22:57 AM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Flux

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 04:30:34 AM »
My experience has been that those highly twisted blades with very wide chord don't actually work better. If you have start up problems then it would almost certainly help but in other respects they seem to make the blades very critical on tsr and load matching is difficult. Even it you manage to match it right I haven't seen any better performance.


Measuring performance is so difficult that it would be very time consuming to actually do scientific tests on these ideas so a lot of it probably comes down to a one off experience. I don't even believe the air flow is as the calculators assume it to be and I see no evidence that having this stupid angle at the root reduces drag, I am inclined to think that the extra timber in this region increases it.


As long as it is thick enough to be strong I see no virtue in wasting lots of timber.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:30:34 AM by Flux »

Dave B

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 10:08:43 AM »
 I would think otherwise if the large drop and twist at the root were not figured as an airfoil also as the calculators show. If it were just a flat face only then yes I would say there would be only the initial start up benifit as a drag set up to push and possibly a hinderance as the speed increases.


 Being a profile this area nearer the root has been carefully calculated in the formulas to be "flying" also and not only helps with start up but continues with "lift" at it's own designed TSR nearer the root.


 The whole blade is part of the system for the blades figured on the calculators, they do not turn on and off sections depending on speed. Each inch of the entire length of blade flys at a different speed for a given RPM hence the twist.


 No argument here that for a given location, application etc. etc. we can be satified with the performance of many different types, styles, profiles of blades. My only point being that the calculators figure the root area as a working part of the entire blade design. Often here (and I understand why) it is generalized that the root area or even inner 1/3 of the blade length does very little work.


 I agree as the diameter decreases so does the swept area (X 4) so there is less power available in the wind but properly designed this portion of the blades can generate very useful power and not just at start up.  Dave B.

 

« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 10:08:43 AM by Dave B »
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fabricator

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 04:19:20 PM »
I punched my numbers in the calculators, it they give the angle at the root as 37 degrees, wow! I think I'm gonna use something a lot closer to the blade carving 101 numbers.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:19:20 PM by fabricator »
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

willib

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 11:04:02 PM »
Dave i would have to agree!

These first two pics show a blade i made a couple years or so ago

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/pic31.JPG

The blade itself is approx. 20 inches long

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/pic34.JPG


This last pic shows it mounted.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/bottom_view.JPG


Bill

« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 11:04:02 PM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

Dave B

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2009, 12:28:00 AM »
Bill,

  I remember these blades, thanks for reffering the photo links again. Just pull on the tips for another 150' or so and wa la, you have a 1-2 MW blade profile. The big boys sure could save a lot of money if they didn't have to be so complicated with all that drop and twist at the root, right ? Wrong, they do it because the whole blade flys (Lifts - pulls) when designed properly.

Dave B.  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:28:00 AM by Dave B »
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oztule s

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2009, 03:02:35 AM »
"The big boys sure could save a lot of money if they didn't have to be so complicated with all that drop and twist at the root, right ? Wrong, they do it because the whole blade flys (Lifts - pulls) when designed properly.

Dave B.  "


Interesting observation, and sometimes holds water too I should think..... but these are designed for constant rpm, variable pitch.... and some (like over here) are constant speed, fixed pitch (pretty ordinary blades).


Designing a fixed blade for fixed rpm with variable wind, is a bit of a compromise...


The boys at Breezy tried many different blade styles, and for this kind of application,   the best turned out to be not too different to a fixed angle airfoil plank!? ..... no twist and no taper.... constant chord..... the kind of thing I would definitely call a compromise blade. But it really does need to be good over the wind range for a fixed rpm, not great at a single tsr (useless).  


Where the batteries basically hold the rpm back past cutin, (common stall operation) it is unlikely to be best. A tight tsr band does not suit this application.

It's just one compromise after another.... as always with wind.


Not trying to be picky.... but:


I really don't think one size fits all. There will be times when the space shuttle technology blade will be the best fit (variable pitch-fixed speed or mppt operation), and others where it just won't be the best at all..(any kind of fixed pitch variable tsr operation... too peaky). As soon as it leaves ideal TSR, the big root area becomes a liability, and the skinny tips (fat root, skinny tips??) will lack torque as the tsr drops off.


..........oztules

« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 03:02:35 AM by oztule s »

Dave B

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Re: Blade question
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2009, 09:07:56 AM »
Oztules,


  Yes, my point exactly. The "system" and book(s) followed here for the axial and the flat blade little twist blades work and are easy to carve so if followed to the T the same performance can be expected. I applaud and thank all those who share in this design.


  No argument here for that. If anyone else has tweaked the system then you know how quickly things can change. For better or worse, I've experienced both and have the scars to prove it. You really shouldn't run a Pinto transmission with a Boss engine. Look for more Hybrids as the system is tweaked, the times are a changing. Dave B.


 

« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 09:07:56 AM by Dave B »
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