Author Topic: Load and Blade TSR  (Read 2091 times)

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imsmooth

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Load and Blade TSR
« on: August 03, 2009, 04:21:57 PM »
If I have a blade designed with a blade calculator for a TSR of 8.  If I run the blades unloaded is the TSR 8, or is it only 8 for the loaded rotor?


Now, for a slightly more complicated question.  How will the TSR vary as I increase the amount of wind energy I wish to extract.  Let's say I have two identical rotors running in the same wind.  Rotor 1 is connected to a MPPT inverter that is drawing 15% of theoretical maximum wind energy; rotor 2 is connected to a MPPT inverter drawing 30% of the maximum wind energy.  How do the rotor speeds compare?  Will rotor 2 running at a slower RPM than rotor 1?

« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 04:21:57 PM by (unknown) »

DanB

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Re: Load and Blade TSR
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 10:37:29 AM »
If you use a good calculator and design for TSR of 8, then that is when you're blade is doing the best job of extracting power from the wind.  In other words ~ if its perfectly loaded, it will run at a TSR of 8 - if it's unloaded, or not loaded enough, it will run faster.  MPPT  - perfectly done would allow the blade to run at a TSR of 8 across a wide range of wind speed and RPM.  If you don't have MPPT and it's simply clamped down to battery voltage (the way most folks are doing things at this time) then you have the trouble of basically trying to match a linear power curve (where the load on the blades is directly related to rpm and wind speed) to the cubic power curve that the blades would like to be putting into the shaft, so TSR will vary.  Right at cutin (when there is basically no, or very little load on the blades) the blades will almost always be running at a higher that designed TSR, then depending on how you load them it should drop off.


This is where in my mind it all seems to get fairly tricky... there are lots of different airfoils out there, some have better lift/drag ratios than others, yet some are more tolerant of running at different TSR and angles of attack... some startup from a stop better than others.  When all things are considered the 'best' choice is hard to know and we'll definitely have to make some compromises.  I tend to take the easy way out and go with blades that are fairly easy to carve and seem to work reasonably well.  

« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 10:37:29 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Flux

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Re: Load and Blade TSR
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 12:30:41 PM »
Dan has just about covered this perfectly.


Tsr has to be the design value and it will be the peak of a series of power curves, it is the optimum value. You will have curves very similar on either side of the design figure. If you go far too low you hit stall and power( Lift) drops like a stone ( much like it does when a plane wing stalls).


When unloaded there is only drag to limit speed, some profiles will reach nearly 3 times the loaded value and some will become too lossy to go up to double loaded speed.


The calculators only give you results that work at constant tsr. If you load in such a way that you don't track the peak of the power curve you may find that the large chord towards the centre and variable pitch are actually worse. For conventional loading I haven't found the calculator predictions helpful and I tend to use the 70% radius figure outwards and extrapolate this linearly to the centre ( very similar to Dan's blade designs) and it works better and uses less timber.


I don't have enough experimental data with mppt to know if following the calculator predictions works better. The machine I have it running on has a prop with twist that reasonably follows the calculator figures to about 1/3 radius, I seriously doubt that going to the extremes near the centre would be beneficial.


One thing is certain you will gain more from mppt than any amount of clever aerofoils but you may possibly be able to get something a bit better with the best available profiles once you have got the tracking to the power curve right. Without mppt don't waste time on even trying to copy accurate profiles and I also suspect that with mppt you will have to copy very accurately with accurate templates of profile milling to get any measurable difference over a sensible hand carved respectable blade.


My own experience is that the optimum tsr falls with wind speed and I get best results by setting my mppt to increase load beyond the theoretical for the higher wind speeds.


This may be something where you could get an improvement with better profiles but it may also be a fact of life and it is certainly fortunate for those who run conventional loading as it at least gives them a head start against the stall problem and may be one reason why simple loading sometimes does better than you would expect.


I seem to be able to get an overall Cp of 0.3 over a fair range of wind speed and with the converter and alternator efficiency about 70% this suggests that the prop is doing better than 0.4. I doubt that you will get above 0,45 if you spend the rest of your life building the perfect blade and even then it will loose shape and surface finish from erosion and the clever profiles will suffer very badly compared with the simple hand carved things.


The big problem with all this is that it is virtually impossible to measure these differences without facilities beyond most of us. Just comparing output against an anemometer on a weather station is little more than guessing. Instantaneous reading anemometers mounted just upwind of the prop at centre height and elaborate data logging into bins of wind speed is the very minimum needed to see these differneces.


Perhaps comparing mills at the same height on towers not far apart in clean air may be the best comparison but few of us can hope to do it.


Flux

« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:30:41 PM by Flux »

scottsAI

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Re: Load and Blade TSR
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 01:20:11 PM »
Flux,


Thanks, needed a reference for my work on modeling fixed pitch DIY wind turbines.

TSR vs RPM vs load vs wind speed, only bits and pieces.

Now have something to quote!-)

Back in May09 came up with a model which plots fixed pitch DIY wind turbine power out vs wind speed. Plots are the same as data which is posted here! Been too busy to write it up.


Have fun,

Scott.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 01:20:11 PM by scottsAI »