DIY windmill, need help with generator/motor among other things

[FUEL]

Alright, well i've been thinking of building a windmill to power a friends cottage. i want to do this at minimal cost, recycling anything i can. I've been spending alot of time reading up and think i understand most things. Now from what i've read many people are building there own generator them self's, i'd rather not do this due to reliability issues and maybe having to re-do it a few time to get it right, not to mention the cost for supply's. I've decided to use a variable speed DC blower motor from a high efficiency furnace. i want to use this motor cause it cost me nothing and since i work in the heating and cooling industry i have access to many used motor from old furnaces and such for free. i'm unsure if this motor will be suited for the job. i'm not sure of the best way to test it, anyone have any idea's?

Here's is what i know about the motor so far. i will copy what it has on the rating plate.

GE Motors

ECM programmable motor

GE modle no: 5SME39HL0003

Serial no:0009S6

Date code:19SHX

HP: 1/2 RPM: 0-1300 Volts: 120/240 Amps: 6.40/4.30

Cust Modle no:HD44AE116

Rot: CCW

Now what i've done is i've removed the back housing and have removed all the ECM electronics, what i'm left with is a small 3 phase AC generator. i've hooked up my digital multimeter (Sperry DM-350)to 2 of the 3 leads, set it to 600VAC, spinning the shaft by hand i can get 15V easy. i hooked up a power drill to the shaft and at full speed i has able to get a bit over 270V. not sure if you need to know the specs of the drill but here they are, it's a 120V 4.5A variable speed drill, RPM: 0-2700.

now i'm thinking this motor will work find but i haven't been able to figure out how much Watt's i can get out of it so i can size a rectifier. my multimeter has a setting for Amp's but i haven't been able to get a reading off it. i though maybe it was due to the fact that there was no load on the generator so i hooked it up to a 120V, 150W coffee grinder and spun the generator with the drill, the grinder worked, i ran over 250V, 2 phase to it and it's didn't burn out but i still wasn't able to get a amp's reading, maybe i'm not using it right, i don't know.

So does anyone have any suggestions? any ideas on how i could improve the performance of this generator/motor? also if it will not provide enough power, could i ad a second one and have them both charging the same battery banks?

I'm not 100% clear on what advantages i would have running a higher volt system, say 48V rather then 12V. Could someone possibly provide some clarification? Also i think i may want to got with a VAWT, it looks to be easier to build and set up, also it would not use as much space and i think it would be easier to attach 2 generators to it if needed. what are your opinions on this?

[ghurd]

At the least, for a HAWT, need to individually rectify the phases at the minimum.

That will double the potential output.

Pretty easy to get 100W at 12V.

For bridge rectifiers, 3 of 25A 200V is plenty.

VAWTs are only easier until you try to build one.  Maybe that's just me.

Depending on the type of VAWT (the operating RPM) and if gearing is in the plan, may want to leave the ECM as is, and rectify with 3 bridges.  One for each wire, each wire connected to both AC ~ terminals.  That will limit the output substantially.

G-

[tanner0441]

Hi

Don't feel qualified to comment on the motor, but the reason you could not get a reading on you meter for the amps is most likely the meter cannot read AC amps. Try a cheap clip on meter they need AC to work. (for the most part)

Also try driving the motor at the speed you intend to run it at with the blades.

Brian

[Rover]

The ECM's will generate power... maybe if you use a bunch of them.  I have (2) 1/2 hp ECMs you really need to follow this recent thread http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2010/3/21/102012/870 and links in it, especially Jerry's

They can, and will generate 100W with the proper wiring, blades in a HAWT.

However, unless you have good (really good ) wind, you will only see the 100W sporadically.  They have a higher cut-in and require some high RPM's , so no big slow blades, they need small fast blades.

But they are still much better than the alternators etc selling on EBAY.

Before you pledge yourself to powering a cottage, think about 100 watts... not consistently will do. Plan on adding solar etc.

 

[Rover]

Really meant to add the consistency... is based on the consistency of the wind.

[imsmooth]

Have you looked into a Fisher & Paykel motor?

[GWatPE]

The motor nameplate states 6.4A.  This is most likely an internal star connected motor.  Without a rewire of the stator, then a continuous rating of 6.4A is OK.  For a windmill, this is an intermittant source, so current peaks could be double.  For highest power output, this will need to be a small dia rotor windmill, spinning at up to 500-600rpm. This motor could possibly produce 4X the MAX output at 48V compared to 12V, but the actual average power will be determined by the wind reigime at the windmill site.  High average wind speeds will dictate a small fast windmill, into a 48V battery, at a peak of around 400W, but low wind speeds will dictate a larger capture area, and slower rpm, probably restricting to around 100W peak into 12V.  24V may be a reasonable compromise.

Gordon.

 

[Bruce S]

Fuel;

 Let's get you measuring current flow before going any further with the motor.

From reading your posts, I'm thinking the meter you have may not be hooked up correctly to motor for correct readings.

For the digital meter to read AMPs, you'll need to hook the red and black wire to one wire side, SO you need to connect the red wire to one wire coming out of the motor, then the black wire needs to go to the load, in the past post it was the coffee grinder.

Set the meter down to a low AMP setting and make sure the Red lead is in the A plug not voltage and black is still at common side. Set the meter to a low amp reading and using the drill start off slow and see if you get any reading on low you should get a reading that quickly gives you a display that needs a higher setting go to next higher setting.

One other thing to do if this isn't working out is to grab a nice 10Amp full wave bridge rectifier from Radio-shack, they're not too expensive and 10Amp DC will be good enough. Hook the motor up per Ghurds instructions hook the RED wire from + side to RED lead from meter set meter to Amps. Hook Black lead from Meter to 12V battery, and using drill spin motor and see if you're getting a current reading will be low enough to read speed up drill to get higher reading until drill is maxed out. IF Amp reading on meter is auto ranging some of this will be easier.

NOW: Wind side, you'll need to check on average wind in your area, this will help in determining how high an RPM you'll need to get an idea of where you'll need to shoot for.

Hope this helps

Bruce S

 

[FUEL]

Well, i found out why i could not read any amps, it was cause my multi meter is for only 250MA, i burnt the fuse lol, i guess i'll have to get a meter from work. i did manage to get a rectifier, i went to a Garage and asked them for an old alternator, i cracked it open and took the rectifier out of it. i have it all wired up and on my DC out wire i install a regular wall receptacle, to make it easyer for me to test things. what i've done now is plug in a hair dryer, set it to max speed and heat and spun the motor, when going CCW i max out at 28VDC, when going CW i max out at 25VDC. So from this i gather i'll need to spin the windmill CCW and that it will charge a 24V batter bank

I live in Ottawa Ontario, from what i've been able to find i think my average wind speed is 2m/s, i'm unsure what blade design to go with, i was thinking 3 blades, 5 feet in dia, should i go with a 2 blade set up?

now knowing that this motor will not be enough to power the cottage, cause it does have a fridge, stove, lights, TV and water pump. i'll be using this windmill more for testing, but here at my house in the city, so i don't imagine i'll get the best winds here and the fact that the windmill will only me about 20feet off the ground. now i know at the cottage i'll get better wind speeds plus i already have a antenna tower there that about 20feet off the ground so i could always ad on to it. i don't think i would need a massive amount of power at the cottage, also chaging the water pump to a low power would help, the TV is only a regular 27inch, apartment size fridge, also have a full size fridge outside as a beer fridge but it's not pluged in very much, so far there is no water heater

[FUEL]

also, i was looking at charge controllers, what do you guys think of these

http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/scripts/shopexd.asp?id=579

and

http://www.colemanair.us/vp_asp/scripts/shopexd.asp?id=583

[ghurd]

They are relay drivers, driving $1.50 car relays?

The 160A unit has the power wires pig tailed in wire nuts?

It would not be difficult to do a lot better.

Given the cost of the entire system, a decent controller will be a very small percentage.

I would suggest waiting to decide on a large controller until you learn more about what the system makes, and more about the loads at the cottage.

Running only the fridge will be a fairly major operation.  Large batteries, large inverter, large and reliable charging system.

The last time I looked (few years ago) the dorm sized fridges used almost the same power per day as the full sized fridges, and some used more.

G-

[Fused]

What Mr Ghurd is not mentioning is that he has a kit available (dirt cheap) that works wonders. After you find out a ball park range of the amps you can produce you may want to click his link and check out his site for details. I'm using his resistors as my dump load and its a good dependable set up. He's also great with answering questions and very knowledgeable in the subject.

Good luck and have fun, it becomes addictive you'll find.

Fused

[Bruce S]

Fused;

 I agree and for what they want for the 60A unit a pre-built with load resistors could be had along with postage and have change left over for...

G- You need to start charging more !! this 60A unit is nice but since your can be ganged and more FETs added for who know how far , you might look into doing  a COLA increase (COLA= Cost Of Living Adjustment).

Cheers;

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

FUEL;

  Hate to keep asking for more, but.

Once you get a meter measuring Amps, come back with some numbers from the meter so we can help tweak the needs.

OR with the hair-dryer, what is its max wattage? 1500? 1800?

The elements in a hair dryer are resistive units so they pretty much won't care if it AC or DC so long as there's enough current to heat them up.

At 1500watts MAX and reading 28Vdc that's about 53A out, which is a lot! Did the elements turn red? was the air coming out hot?

Heated water can be had by building even a small solar water heater, small camping ones hold about 5 gallons and can be hung up outside and heat up pretty quickly.

Cheers;

Bruce S

[ghurd]

Thanks guys.

I am considering a 20% retroactive price increase.

So for all you guys using my stuff, don't be surprised if you get a bill!

LOL

G-

[Rover]

Grief there is Maintenance/Support charge on the controller now? What is this , software ? LOL... that's how I make my living (20% is about right)

[ghurd]

There's an idea!

Software charges by the number of PCs?

Maybe the retroactive increase should be 1/10th% per watt?

Surely nobody would complain about 1/10th of 1%?

Say 10% on a 100W system, 25% on a 250W system, 150% on a 1500W system...

Suddenly that dozenaire status seems within reach!

G-

(I crack myself up)

[Rover]

You'd be acting on good faith, better just have a flat rate.

You think you're laughing roflol

[FUEL]

Yes, the Hair drier is 1500W, the fan motor did blow air but not at full speed and there was heat coming from it, i did not notice if the coils where red but you could definitely feel the heat, maybe had the fan been running faster it would have worked like it was plugged into a 110VAC outlet. sorry for the delay in getting the readings, my meter will not do and the ones we have at work are the ones your clip onto the wire and they don't seem to work with VDC so i'll have to find another one to use.

[Bruce S]

G-

With ALL the extra dough coming in, will there be a DC 2.0? maybe 48V version?

Checks in the mail sir...

Bruce S

[ghurd]

A bunch of guesses, and some Ohm's / Watt's law...

I figure it was making about 2.9A, bit under 100W.

CW/CCW should make no difference for this one.

I figure the drive device works better and faster one way than the other.

G-

[FUEL]

well, you were close, it was making 2.7A max with no load on it besides the multi meter and it peeks at 230 VDC, now i may be wrong but for inverter sizing you take volts X Amp = Watt  so if i used this as well would it mean i make 621WATTs max?

[ghurd]

621W.  Nope.
Watts = Amps x Volts, at the same time.

One way had 0 amps, other had 0V, so it made 0 watts.
Getting it to show 621W is how scammers sell junk.

At the minimum, Really need to separate the phases and individually rectify them.
Snip the Star point, solder on 3 more wires, use 3 bridges.
That will get nearly double the watts output, real watts.
G-

[FUEL]

Oh i do have it rectified to DC,  i Used a 3 phase rectifier from an old car alternator, i will build my own but have been using this for testing, but efter thinking about it, 621watts is wrong. should a check the amps when charging a 12VDC battery?                                                                                                             

[Rover]

Yes it is a must if your goal is to charge batteries. I test with the battery at 70-80 percent of charge.

[Rover]

Although this involves an ecm... here is a link and photos on how I test...

The liitle black box in the middle is a 50amp ammmeter, to the right obviously is a multimeter reading volts
(the Battery, etc I'm sure you will have no trouble making out)

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,140861.msg943404.html#msg943404

[Sr WiNdTeCh]

So.... When I try and search for 'wind turbine' I usually end up with ... so so info.... my problem must be that I didn't search for 'windmill'.....

Thanks... Problem solved..

[FUEL]

Well, i went digging around and found an OLD (5 years old)  12V mastercraft battery from an old drill. now the batterys would not hold a charge so i stopped using it years ago. when i first opened up the battery it didn't have a charge at all and no amps, it's a 10 cell ni-cd. so i hooked it up to my motor/turbine and ran it up to speed intermittently for about 30min, about 8min on and then off for a bit and then back on. well by the end the battery seems to be charged and also holding it, when i went to bed last night the battery was at 13.23v and this morning it's at 13.20v so a 0.03V loss over night. so it seems that my mill will work just fine, i guess it will be the equivalent of a small trickle charger when theres wind but it's better then nothing right, not bad for a beginner lol.

i was wondering, could i use alot of these old ni-cd battery cells to build large 12V cells? cause i can get alot of old tool batterys from work and recyclers. would they last very long? is there anything i should know when it comes to battery's? cause i've looked around and there not cheap and to keep with the them of this project i'd like to spend next to nothing and build/recycle all i can.

Oh and now that i know that this turbine will not bet good enough for the cottage i was thinking of maybe making my own stator, no i've read a bit about it but not much, does anyone know of a place with good instruction on how they should be made? i was thinking of maybe building one to run at 24V maybe 30A max output, also would be for very low RPM. i have an anttana tower there 25feet up so i plan to use that as is. any comments or links would be awesome, i don't have plans to start builing my own turbine right away but soon, just have to learn what i need to know and get the material.