post pic,s of R.E. projects in wind forum

[fabricator]

I would avoid any potential for welded joints as the load-path from segment to segment.  Welds are less strong than the base material and much more prone to crack.  Welding parts ON TO the basic tube used as a coupler is the way to go, because the tube remains intact.

"Yes a coupler is a very good idea 1 ft etc"

One thing here thats not being specified is the welding process.

Years ago, I had a bearing puller, each jaw was forged. I snaped of one of the "tangs", I welded it with a small mig welder, then ground the surfaces, the area that I welded was "way" noticably weaker and would crack under even a moderate load.

On the other hand, I recently witnessed a stainless weld with a TIG machine and some really good rod, we did not use helium/mix, it was AC and 100% argon.

I did a brinell test of the weld, its outa site.

The idea of using a coupler to join segments of tubing is a really good idea...

JW

Stainless tig is typically done electrode negative DC with 100% argon.

[birdhouse]

i would have to agree with all here.  if you're a moderate to poor welder, couplers might be better.  if your a pro-welder, than do whatever you know will work. 

i've been welding for four years now, and still consider myself a beginner.  i only own a 110volt mig welder, but it does what i need it to.  i'm a nazi about grinding all pieces to "clean" them before welding.  i've gotten to the point of making some pretty good looking welds. good looking and strong may be two different things, so:

i was curious about my abilities, and started trying to destroy some of my welded joints with a pick-up chained to a massive concrete structure.  i quickly noticed the steel itself would fail well before the weld would.  now, i feel like i could weld well enough for structural items. 

there's a lot more to it than just that, but you should know if you've got it or not, and what the capabilities of you welder are also. 

for folks like fabricator, he could probably build a complete tower with nothing but a bolt, and a thousand pounds of mig wire.  for the rest of us, know where your abilities end. 

adam

[JW]

Fabricator,

We mainly specialize welding heavy gauge aluminum with our TIG, its 350 amps. (syncrowave 351)

But for what its worth, we use a "rare earth" tungston. For the weld he was making using the 304 rod, we could careless if it failed or not, thats why we were so suprised how much strength it holds. ( rare earth: weldcraft gray 1/8 tungstons not thoriated)

Someone who was overly concerned, could use the couplings and bolt and then weld them and exceed the overall rating of the tubes to be joined.

JW

[SparWeb]

This has got to be EXACTLY why nobody can give specific suggestions to building towers.  1000 eyeballs reading it and guaranteed a few guys will see it one way, disagree, while others will see it differently.

I don't have a ticket myself, but lots of hours "under the hood" so to speak.  MIG mostly, but trained on Acetylene, and dabbled with TIG when I wanted to be fancy.  I could go on for a bit, I can get long-winded about technical things you know, but isn't it safer to assume that anybody reading this forum is not going to be a certified welder, not have the 250Amp Millermatic, not post-heat treat, and not powder coat, etc., etc.?  If anyone absolutely needs me to go on about it, I certainly can demonstrate that medium quality welds will not have the same fatigue strength as the basic metal, and if the materials weren't clean before welding the corrosion can take over in a couple of years and then you definitely do have a piece of junk on your hands.  Even after certified welders are doing the work.  The bend test you do after quenching your plates only tells the inspector that you can see straight and your hands are steady.  It does not prove metallurgical strength.  It does hint that the ductility of the weld is lower than the base metal - which is bad for impact resistance and fatigue.  There are other guys here that know more about welding than me here, but that's my take on it.  I will always be wary of welds, but it is such a useful process.

Sorry Hayfarmer - your handle leads me to assume you're gonna do it the "farmer" way, but of course all this assumption can make an A** of U and ME.  (Mostly me if you believe some guys).  I don't bother testing my "farm" welding work either.  The horses don't get out + that's what counts.  At work I won't get an arc anywhere near the stuff for sale, but if we need a paint drying rack, well why not.

[TomW]

Spar;

Yep. You could NOT get everyone reading here to agree that water was wet and / or the night is dark!

Human nature.

A couple of jerks here would argue things just to raise a stink. Wether they actually feel that way  or not.

They know who they are so I will not name names.

Just from here.

Tom

[hayfarmer]

 Steve and all who threw in their 2 centavo's,I am A thankin U for the advise, I am not a certified welder and not a pretty  welder at that.That Is why I was asking for input

so.... I Will do both welding and sleaving at the junction of new segment with about 2 feet of of inner sleeve inside joints and outside.  {gonna do it the "farmer" way}

may not look pretty but will sleep better at nite.Sparks wont fly for a few months ,getting in to hay season,    will be busier than a 3 legged dawg with fleas   


   hayfarmer

[fabricator]

Spar;

Yep. You could NOT get everyone reading here to agree that water was wet and / or the night is dark!

Human nature.

A couple of jerks here would argue things just to raise a stink. Wether they actually feel that way  or not.

They know who they are so I will not name names.

Just from here.

Tom

I really wasn't trying to be a jerk, just pointing out a something I knew to be false, a properly done weld should be as strong or stronger than the base metal, that's all.
BTW if you feel the need to tell me to quit being a jerk go right ahead, I'm a big boy, I can handle it, but don't tell me to quit being a jerk for stating a fact.

[fabricator]

Fabricator,

We mainly specialize welding heavy gauge aluminum with our TIG, its 350 amps. (syncrowave 351)

But for what its worth, we use a "rare earth" tungston. For the weld he was making using the 304 rod, we could careless if it failed or not, thats why we were so suprised how much strength it holds. ( rare earth: weldcraft gray 1/8 tungstons not thoriated)

Someone who was overly concerned, could use the couplings and bolt and then weld them and exceed the overall rating of the tubes to be joined.

JW

JW, you probably have 2% ceriated tungsten, it's really popular now days, it'll work on aluminum, stianless, mild steel, inconel, hasteloy, nickel, just about everything.

[TomW]

Off topic response to fabricator;

Not that this thread is on the original topic anyway...

BTW if you feel the need to tell me to quit being a jerk go right ahead, I'm a big boy, I can handle it, but don't tell me to quit being a jerk for stating a fact.

****SIGH*****

Read carefully what I wrote not what you wanted it to mean.


It is curious you assumed I was talking about you!  Although I have seen you and another user run a  tag team on other members more than once where you were being a jerk  (since you brought it up).

I cannot comment on welding as I don't do that well or even acceptably.

I was trying for a more a general statement on the futility of trying to get any group to agree across the board on any subject. Sorry you thought you were  the guilty party but that is your mistake.

Lets just let it go at that.

Tom

[fabricator]

No harm no foul, I'm a flawed human bean, what can I say.

[hayfarmer]

  just thankful for all the experience shared here, better getting advise than getting buried,this can be a very dangerous hobby and don't want to give the press free ammunition

  to shoot back into the R.E.  camp.when I add to tower in summer will post details.  Although one question wasn't answered. tower to guy anchors are currently 25 feet  spaced,

  when I add 20 feet totaling 55 feet high should I make another set of anchors further out for the new top set of guy lines or do you all think 25 feet is sufficient for a 6 foot

   mill, and  I promise I wont make it any bigger at this site.    thanks again for the free advise

I was able to modify post to reply  .     ********note to admin ******** Why not lengthen the modify time to save posting space?

I really over killed the footers did about 18 bags of 80 lb sakcrete reinforced with welded re bar and wire mesh so , No worries about the anchors and really don't have a great

wind site at my home,so I think I will be fine,think there are pictures in this link :    http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,145087.msg983973.html#msg983973

thanks for the quick reply



    hayfarmer

[birdhouse]

hayfarmer-
the genral rule of thumb is guy footing radius from tower base to be 1/2 tower height.  so, 55 foot high means each footing should be around 27.5' from the tower base, so i's say you're in the ball park.  some engineered tower drawings i've been looking at use a smaller footprint than the "1/2 rule".  they are able to do this by using bigger diameter cables, and heavier footings.  they spec a 5000+ lb footing for each of the guys, and their footing for an eighty foot tower are only 22 foot away.

how much do you footing weigh/what type?  that might be the big question. 

i went 32 foot away for a 65 foot tower, and feel good about it. 

adam

[fabricator]

That kinda border line, personally, for a 6 foot mill, I think your good to go.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

hayfarmer-
the genral rule of thumb is guy footing radius from tower base to be 1/2 tower height.  so, 55 foot high means each footing should be around 27.5' from the tower base, so i's say you're in the ball park.  some engineered tower drawings i've been looking at use a smaller footprint than the "1/2 rule".  they are able to do this by using bigger diameter cables, and heavier footings.  they spec a 5000+ lb footing for each of the guys, and their footing for an eighty foot tower are only 22 foot away.

And when scaling remember that closer in means more weight and stronger cables are needed, due to leverage.

You design anchors as if the ground will be liquid, at least when it comes to resisting upward motion in the vertical direction, and all that holds the tower against falling down in a big gust is the weight of the anchor.  (When it's been raining for a while and the ground around the anchor is very muddy that's just about what happens, too.)

[artv]

Hi all, just to bring the topic back on track. I'll try to post this pic my son's girlfriend took with her phone.

Now before you start laughing ,it was just an experiment to see if I was capable of getting something in the air and making some power. Total cost zero dollars, but lots of fun.......artv

[hayfarmer]

 ARTV, He who laughs first laughs last,read it in a fortune cookie. this is a forum for improving /inventing /refine  A.E. did you have the time to get results from the turbine? a watt made is a watt earned.

    (I laughed a LOT... because most people made stuff a lot worse than that! I  made these,  G- )

  wow G-   another item that" looked better in the dark"  the pedestal is getting shorter. and again how did it do? any power out of them ,any improvements? the rest of the story:



  hayfarmer  


  
  

[ghurd]

I laughed a LOT... because most people made stuff a lot worse than that!
I made these,
G-

[Madscientist267]

That's some high grade professional back woods engineering right there! 

I can't say squat really, I've designed some purdy pieces of equipment myself... Unfortunately (or really more like intentionally at the time), I never took very many pictures of that kind of thing... I have nostalgic visions in my head that eliminate the need for tangible artifacts at a personal level. Translated: its bad enough that I saw them, didn't have the urge to share them hahaha

There's nothing like quick and dirty to get a concept out of your head and into the real world. But why do they always look so much better in our minds than when they make it to the physical realm? Then again, I've caught myself marveling at the various train wrecks that have emerged from my imagination, but it has never become clear as to whether this was because I was impressed with what I had done, or if I was simply 'caught in the headlights' with disbelief. 

Steve

[artv]

Hi Hayfarmer........I don't really know how to do the math yet ,it took me a year just to get to this point.Lol..But it will charge up the nicad recharables.
G- I was going to make some blades with 5 gallon bucket, but then I got my hands on an old blue barrell (40 gallon I think).
It will start spinning at the drop of a hat but I think the blades are of poor design because when the wind gusts' they are limited to how fast they spin,I'm guessing around three to four hundred rpm, after that everything starts wobbiling side to side and bucks back and forth. If you built it bigger it would make for a good rodeo ride....Lol............artv

[birdhouse]

hayfarmer-
i didn't realize you had updated a previous post until just now.  (18) 80lb bags is really not a lot of concrete for a minimal guy radius.  that's only 1440lbs.  it may work fine, but i think with 50' and a small guy radius, you'd be on the verge of yanking a footing clear out of the ground if you got extreme winds.  like someone noted above, (spar?)  footings need to be designed as though the ground they sit in is liquid, because it can get to almost that point during heavy rains. 

i'm far from an engineer, and not very good at math by the standards here, so when i began designing my tower, i got a hold of as many plans from various manufacturers of wind turbine towers, and studied them.  you can start to get a feel for what is acceptable from manufacturers that have obviously had their towers engineered, and also have a safety factor built into their calcs.

for me to feel good about my 65' tower, i went with a guy radius of 32' and the footing are made from 3000lbs of concrete each.  they are also shaped like a pyramid with the top chopped off.  for them to pull out, 3000lbs plus would have to be applied to them, partially from the pure weight, but also the shape would dictate that a lot of earth would have to be displaced to move them upwards.

basically, i'm saying i wouldn't do what you are proposing, but it might be fine.   

adam

[hayfarmer]

  Hi bird,thanks for the input, I feel pretty comfortable about the anchors,my mill is only a 6 footer and have a poor wind site at home  with trees blocking quite a bit. I  dug 2 separate anchor

  holes and tunneled 2 ft below ground and connected them  and belled out to the sides as deep and wide as I could with a post hole digger in each  hole to a depth of 5 ft also                                                

     added scrap  concrete , along  with    welded     re bar cages and mesh  connecting the holes together.  the top 2 feet of earth is undisturbed.  Am far from a engineer myself


        my guy radius is 25 feet from the tower that's about 50% of proposed of new height .   I hope /think /pray     that's its  good  enough







   hayfarmer