12vdc or a higher voltage

[Homebrewed12vdc]

Over the years of reading this board, and talking to many others, and playing myself, I still trully believe in 12v over other voltages. I would love to see a pole to see just how many people believe 12v is better way to go over other voltages. My reason for going 12v is automobiles, campers are full of goodies you can use, from lights, to appliances and everything in between. And I have found that if you become a good buddy of the local junkyard, you can usaully get these items free or for the cost of a six pack. What you other guys think?

[electrondady1]

would it not depend on how maney amps your rig produced. ?

[windstuffnow]

  Dollar for dollar it's actually cheaper to run voltages higher than 12v.  Most usually use their battery bank to drive an inverter and power conventional items in thier home.  Since most homes are set up with 110/220 it's a simple conversion.  I run mine on a 12v system but plan to move up sometime in the future.  Over the years I've collected mostly easy to get components (12v stuff) but now there is quite a range of components that are fairly easy to get as well as reasonably priced.  

  Basically I think it boils down to what your using your system for.  The higher the power requirements the higher voltage will require less rewiring.

Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

 

[amiklic1]

Does anyone know of some god 24/220V or even 48/220V inverter plans for download or buy?

And, yes, I think that, if you're going to invert voltage to 110/220V, it is better to use 24 or even 48 V, but Homebrewed12vdc ir right when it comes to 12V devices availability vs. 24 or 48V devices. Here in Croatia, very fef devices can be found that operate on 24V (mostly  for truck/bus use), and I think that one can't find a thing that operates on 48V.

[Nando]

Plans or schematics for high power DC/AC converters ARE useless, unless the assembler knows a lot of power electronics and in many cases de PC Board is, as well, available including most of the specialized parts for such converters.

Presently there are not DC/AC converter KITS available in the market

So I do not recommend such effort for the manufacture of a single DC/AC converter.

Regards

Nando

[richhagen]

I like higher voltages in general because the transmission wires don't need to be as thick to carry the same power.  Rectifiers and other components are rated by voltage and amps, and they are usually cheaper to handle the same power at the higher voltage.  I have found that 48 volt inverters are available, although a bit more costly here, from E-Bay and other places.  Also, I read a while back that the SAE plans to convert vehicle automotive systems to 42V systems in the coming years for new cars.  I'm not sure if thats a 36V nominal battery with a charging system delivering 42V, or a 42V bank.  Niether is a common voltage for components and inverters now (or turbines for that matter).  Rich Hagen

[Chiron]

42V nominal might have been chosen because many States limit the voltage a non licenced Electrician can work on.

I had to get certified as an "Electronics Installer" in WA to install Dish Network (Small satelite dishes). WA limited the voltages I could work on with that cert. to 90AC and 50DC which coincides with the voltages on a phone line.

That only applied to devices hooked up to a public utility as far as I know so maybe it has nothing to do with it.

[picmacmillan]

i was just pondering the same issue....it seems to me that like all the others say, if you need alot of juice then you go 48 volt, but 12 volt is like you said very adaptable to most everything and it won't kill you, if you or someone working on your system makes a mistake(most likely)...i do see alot of folks running 48 volt though....i guess its the big league of electricity production...pickster

[wooferhound]

Here is an article in Car Audio magizine describing the change to 48 volt automobiles to be mostly complete by the year 2010 . . .

http://www.caraudiomag.com/features/0307cae_42volt/index.html

[Chiron]

One advantage of 12V over 48V may disapear over time when the 42V accesories come down in price. I'm assuming the 42V units will tolerate 48V like most 12V auto stuff can take up to 18V without problems.

I'm sure at first 42V car stereos, video, lights, etc will come at a premium price since demand will be small and the market will be people who can afford new (probably upper end) cars. Not 15 year old Buicks like I have......

What I'm planning on is to generate a higher voltage either directly or with an inverter at the gen. and them use DC/DC conversion to charge batteries. That way I can start with a 12V system and easily go to 48V (42V maybe?) later as I rely more on wind and less on the grid.

[wdyasq]

Actually what I read was 18 - 2.2V cells.  It would be called a 36V system here.  Air-conditioning, starting, lighting and power-steering would all be controlled electronicly according to the litertature I have reviewed.  Sanyo amd Sanderson already have the air-conditioning units designed.  There are several companies working on power-steering and power brakes.

Ron

[dave123]

I am going through the same thought process right now, as for doing a camper conversion on a truck with a 24v system.  I decided to do all the camper stuff with 12v, as I plan to use minimal wattage to run things like LED lighting, intermittent 12v flourescent lighting, and maybe a boom box or car stereo, and using existing AA NiMh 12v chargers for accessories like flashlights, digital cameras, 2 way radios, whatever.  No plans on even using a forced air camper type furnace, as I don't want to fund the electrical drain.  I don't want the wasted wattage of running through a 24 to 12 converter for such small drains, even if it means a more complex charging setup for the 12v system.

In addition, since I am going to invest in deep cycle batteries, I also plan to make the bank large enough that I can run an inverter off of it to power only my house furnace or my fridge/freezer for short power outages.  For this, my thinking is that I can get an appropriate sized inverter and install it near to the batteries to minimize line losses, and run an extension cord from the truck to the house.  The batteries would then be kept up with periodical running of a homemade Briggs and Stratton 12v battery charger along with a solar panel and/or homemade wind generator as needed.  Not a great system, but I live in the city and the idea is for short term outages only.

As stated before by others, it all depends on how much power you plan to use.  If I were to power a house from alt energy with some of the modern conveniences, I would go for higher voltage and just run it all through an inverter.  Then you have more efficient transfer from not just your battery bank to the appliance, but also from the charging source (distant and permanently located wind and solar) to the battery bank.

[nothing to lose]

"WA limited the voltages I could work on with that cert. to 90AC and 50DC which coincides with the voltages on a phone line."

Hmm, so in other words it would be illegal for me to wire my own phone without getting a cert. like you have??

Or you had to get cert.. to do the same thing I can do with out it??

[nothing to lose]

NEVER should brakes or steering ever have anything to do with electric. This modern crap is garbage!!

 I have a 95 lebaron convertable everything works perfect, except the instrument lights don't work and I have to jumper the cooling fan on the radiator. If they can't keep simple things like that working properly I sure don't want my steering or brakes working the same way!!

And I can't count how many cars the in the tank feul pumps quit on and I had to fix wiring!! Not the pump went bad, but various parts of the circuit.

Moving up to 48V dc systems might be good for some things, but the rest of the crap is garbage. I geuss the real reason to move up to higher volts is they can only make light so bright at 12V, so go 48V and they can really blind us!!

There is nothing SAFE about 5 milion candle powerd lights that blind on comming traffic or the vehicle in front of you. Sure you can clearly see the car hitting you when you blind the driver with your lights, really safe huh. The closet I have come to having an accident the last 3 times was due to stupid bright lights blinding me!

1. , cop in fog, his overly bright light bar glared in the fog and totally blinded me and stupid officer stepped out INTO the road as I passed, I bet he is still wiping! I was driving safely, reduced speed, moved to left far as I could etc... only other thing to do would have been stop in the road and wait for him to get done righting the ticket and leave!! Being I have driven about 30 years now all over the USA and in all weather conditions I can say for a fact the older dimmer good non-halogen lights were far safer and could be seen MILES away and there is no need to blind drivers like that at all.
   
2. , stupid snow plow in heavy snow, I was passing safley then his over bright halogen yellow "SAFETY" flashers blinded me glaring off the snow! He was moving about 35mph working but safe highway speeds were around 55 mph, and I was passing properly and safely. Same thing as above, 30years of driving!
   
3. , blinded by the lights of the vehicle tailgating me on a 2 lane road I could not see the deer on the side of the road till I was very close, I missed the deer fine, was about 3" from being hit in the rear though since I had to slow and swerve really fast to avoid the deer at such close range. Had it not been for the bright lights behind me I would have seen the deer much sooner and avoided the deer in a more safer manner.
   
   

 30 years of driving and never had a wreck other than 1 motorcycle, and that dunmb bimbo pulled out in front of me so close I actually saw her looking at me while she was stopped at the sign!

I have come closer to wrecks in the last few years because of "SAFETY" crap than I ever have before too.

And in 30 years of driving I had never saw so many vehicles burning on the side of the road or burn marks where one has burned as I have in the last 3 years alone. The ones I see flaming and smoking are all newer types, mostly the ones with in the tank feul pumps as it so happens. I also know first hand of 4 wrecks in which the vehicle burned!

Needless to say, changes in the auto industry, new cars, and govenmernt regulations scare the h3ll out of me in the name of "SAFETY"!!

[nothing to lose]

For a home made DC gennie I am wondering how those 1 wire Gm altenators would work at higher volts. Since the regulator is built in and  I think supposed to use battery voltage to the fields to regulate the charging volts, I wonder what would happen if I just wire mine up to a 24V or 48V battery bank? Will it charge at the proper level for that voltaged or still try to put out only 12V? What would need changed inside if so?

As I recall you can short out a pin in the case (the diodes?) and get 120Vac output from one. I am thinking pull the diodes and run 120vac to the bank and rectify/regulate it there, but have not tried this yet. I will be picking up 2 more 100amp ones today if they have them. Probably take one apart since it's been awhile since I looked inside one.

I just built another riding mower gennie about a week ago. 13hp brigs with a 100amp alt. Don't have a good belt on it and bracket still needs work, but it was working. Problem was the bad belt (burned spot and cracks) jerked on the alt and made the mount flex a wee bit at times and belt jumps off. A good belt would fix that, but so far I haven't had time to get one and do any testing. It was running fine off propane. Ran a copper line from a 250gal home tank (spliced another regulated line) and a used a simple shut off valve like for a stove or heater. Worked well! Adjust the motor throttle for air flow and shutoff valve for feul flow and let run. Manual set up, have to stay close by to shut it off if the motor stalls for some reason. Not a problem at the moment since I will be working right next to it on other stuff when running it.

 I will be looking for a automatic shutoff for it or building my own!

Doing fast easy simple things like that is one reason I preffer 12V over higher voltages. Everything I have for vehicles are 12V and probably always will be since I preffer older stuff and dislike the new ones. So 12V is and always will be the most versitale for various uses to me. I do alot of mobile things like traveling and camping or remote houses for temporary living like now. So 12V makes it all easy.

For a permantant setup for the house I may decide to go with higher volts later when I buy new things for just here only. I will stay 12V for mobile though of course.

 I see no real reason to not use both though. If a person can only fly one gennie then I geuss a choice has to be made. But if I fly 3 or 4 gennies, then why not have one large bank at maybe 24V or 48v and use a more effiecient inverter and smaller wires to run the houses AC, wire a couple genies for that. Also have a smaller bank and wind gennie wired for 12Vdc to run common cheap 12V items like fans.

 Anything you run off the 12v bank is taking a load off of the 24-48V bank. So if you can run both then why not?

 I was looking and thinking about my power useage here. I always have several fans running it seems. 24/7 either blowing air for heating or for cooling, but almost all year the fans are running. Why not just get some cheap auto radiator fans instead of these box fans? 12v fans, tons of air, about the same price or less than box fans. Easy to make or buy speed controlls for instead of just the standard 3 speed box fans they can be variable. Even easy to make them temp sensing probably like I made computer fans. Computers are the other main power hog, and those can be run off UPSes direct from batteries (still an inverter, but you have choices of main inveter or batteries, and various volts). I really only need AC power for kitchen type items it seems and a few power tools and the tools may even be able to change to DC also.

12V motors are more common and easier to get as DC motors than any other DC volts. Cars are full of them! So for that reason 12Vdc may be better than higher volts also if running direct DC items.

I'll probably run various banks at volts for whatever I get the best deals on. Find a cheap house 48V inverter and I'll set up a battery bank for it

 Or a 48v 220 inverter??