Author Topic: A few questions about phantom loads.  (Read 3364 times)

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(unknown)

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A few questions about phantom loads.
« on: April 16, 2005, 09:22:42 PM »
I remember reading a article in the discover magazine a year or two ago about how many of your electrical appliances (like tv's,vcr's and computers) will draw up to 60% of their power requirment even when they are off. So what i did is put a switch in so i can keep them from drawing current when its off.

What i would like to know is if there is anyway this might shorten the life of my tv or computer?

I remember hearing about there being a battery in the computer and was wondering if cutting the power off would drain it?


A few more questions I have are....

1. If you have a 100 watt light bulb and run it for 24 hours it equals 2.4 KWH and at a price of 6.5 cents per KWH it will cost 15.6 cents a day to run that light bulb.

Is this right?^



  1. Does a adapter draw the same amount of current even when nothing is plugged in to it?
  2. How many watts does your typical computer use? I cant find it written anywhere on mine.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 09:22:42 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2005, 03:38:28 PM »


  1. Yes.
  2. NO. What it draws is dependent on how cheap it is. If it gets warm then it's drawing power. For around $35 you can buy a Kill-o-watt meter. Very helpful to figure out these questions. I bought one and shared it with a few friends. After you find out what everything draws, not much use except for new items.
  3. Depends:-) I have 16 computers they draw 90 to 120watts each. (figure my bill at 9.87 cents/kw. The computers are 1.6Ghz to 2.5Ghz. I figure around 100w then add if a  fast video card, CD-ROM or DVD burner, second hard disk, any other cards pluged in. The speakers are separate as is the monitor.


Have fun.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 03:38:28 PM by (unknown) »

picmacmillan

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2005, 04:27:57 PM »
it may only cost 6.5 cents a kilowatt hour for the electricty but it is not a true indicator of what you pay...you also pay for storage, delivery and a bunch of other charges...so, it does not mean it cost 15 cents to run per day, its plenty more...another example is your water bill...where we are, and probably where you are, we pay a certain amount for our water bill...we are then charged a150% of our water bill as a sewer bill..so again,the first  cost is very misleading...what i would do is take my bill total and divide it by how many kilowatts i used and that would be the accurate amount..not just kilowatt per hour......pickster
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 04:27:57 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2005, 05:27:13 PM »
For #3. It should say amps, or A, somewhere on the back.

Multiply Amps times Volts to find watts.

That is the most it will use.

It must be figured for the monitor, printer, etc., also.


G-

« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 05:27:13 PM by (unknown) »
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nanotech

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2005, 08:43:24 PM »
Quote
"What i would like to know is if there is anyway this might shorten the life of my tv or computer?
I remember hearing about there being a battery in the computer and was wondering if cutting the power off would drain it?"





The main reason for the power drain is for the remote receiver.  Your remote is a transmitter, and the TV receives its signals.  To do this, there must be a part supplied with power.  It's comparable to leaving a radio turned on.  All you will do by removing the power is disabling the remote's ability to turn the TV on.  It will clear any memory settings like personal equalizer (sound settings), channel presets, parental lockouts, etc if your TV is new enough to have them.




Turning off and unplugging your computer will not affect the onboard battery.  All that battery does is keeps the memory for the BIOS.  That battery is used whether the computer is on, off, or unplugged.  So removing the power will not affect it at all.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 08:43:24 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2005, 10:07:22 PM »
Some TVs also have an instant on feature as well as remote function. The instant on allows a lower current to always keeping the filaments in the picture tube on. This will draw a certain amount that you have to consider. Early instant on TVs used from 40 to 60 watts while they were turned off. Lots of wasted power going down the tube so to speak
« Last Edit: April 16, 2005, 10:07:22 PM by (unknown) »

TimV

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2005, 05:26:42 AM »
WoW! Wow! WoW!

kwh prices I see posted!! 6.5, 9.8....Be thankful your not in New York State...Are "delivered prices were around 19 cents last time I looked ..or dared to.....(years ago) Isn't great how the utility companies have to explain the charges so even a simple person like myself can easily read a bill and see exactly what your paying!(Pun intended!)

Everytime our politicians help us out(explanation of charges)  we seem to get more confused....

But one thing they are good at is hiding all the new taxes they keep slipping into each bill power
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 05:26:42 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2005, 06:41:50 AM »
What i would like to know is if there is anyway this might shorten the life of my tv or computer?


Maybe, maybe not.


Power cycling a computer temperature cycles the boards and the components.  This creates stresses that may eventually cause a connection to break or become too resistive, creating a failure.


Not power cycling a computer means that the semiconductors run hot longer and the disk spins longer (if the computer isn't smart enough to shut off its motor when not using it - and even if it IS smart it probably starts it up from time to time to write logging info on it).  One failure mechanism for some semiconductors is migration of impurities due to heat - eventually changing its doping profile sufficiently to cause it to malfunction.  Another is bearing wear in moving parts.


Leaving a computer off for a long time (like decades) may cause the electrolytic capacitors in the power suppplies and circuit boards to deteriorate and short out when you finally turn it on.  But this is not likely to happen until long after the BIOS battery dies.


So the question is:  Which will kill your computer first?  Not sure.  B-)  My guess is that running it - especially if it's running hot - will typically kill it sooner than power cycling it once or twice per day.  But that neither is likely to kill it until after it's SO obsolete that you've replaced it - or thought about replacing it for a couple years.


Power cycling got a bad rep in the days of vacuum tubes.  They ran a LOT hotter, and when first turned on their heaters had a low resistance resulting in an inrush current and extreme thermal stress.  Tubes tended to blow out a lot sooner (and other things fail) if you kept switching things on and off than if you left them running.  But they burned so much power that you typically turned 'em on and off anyhow unless you were running some commercial operation (such as a radio station or a factory) where power use was a minor issue compared to equipment reliability.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 06:41:50 AM by (unknown) »

nanotech

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2005, 11:42:57 AM »
I think mine are $.055/KWh for the first 500, then $.08 from then on...




All I know is that this last winter about killed me with up to $500.00 monthly electric heating bills....
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 11:42:57 AM by (unknown) »

(unknown)

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2005, 04:52:50 PM »
OK thanks everybody for helping with my questions.

I've been thinking about getting a kilowatt meter so i could figure out what the average wattage is on all of these appliance but until scottsAI brought it up I didn't know what such a device was called :)

I did finally find where the wattage is on my computer. It was on the bottom and I had to unplug it and flip it upside down to see the numbers which was a pain.I figured it to be 690 watts but I don't know if thats the maximum power it draws or if its that much all the time. I guess Ill figure it out whenever I go and buy a meter.

One thing im a little unsure of is the monitor.On the back it says 100-240V and 1.5A .

I multiply it by 1.5 and what?

Do you just take whatever the voltage is in the circuit and multiply by 1.5?

Thanks again everybody for replying.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 04:52:50 PM by (unknown) »

hobot

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2005, 08:19:45 PM »
Speaking of shutting down a PC computer system, what

about low temp storage with power off, say in up state

New York cabin that can't be gotten too for weeks at a go.

Anything to freeze or break or be a hazzard on a cold start

up when power returns?


hobot

« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 08:19:45 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2005, 02:01:12 AM »
The wattage on the label is the max power it can draw.

Nothing to do with the actual power it draws.

A monitor will say 150w but, when measured only 75w.

The power may not include starting currents... just to make it more confusing.


A PC power supply will have 400 watts or 500 watts on the label. The actual power it draws is dependent on the load(s) attached to it.


The little brick power modules draw power without anything connected. Normally just a watt or two, but may be more. The load connected determines the actual power drawn.


The battery in a computer should last 3-5 years. Need more time? Batt cost 75 cents.


You can't use a regular DVM (digital volt meter) to measure power. The meter can measure volts and amps, but the “real” power is not just the V*A or V*I the phase relationship determines the “real” power, number is 80% to 100% correct, you just can't tell. If resistive load, then is correct. Most loads are not only resistive.

Is it confusing yet?

Have fun.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 02:01:12 AM by (unknown) »

chux0r

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2005, 03:05:56 PM »
Just make sure it's warmed back up before you turn on the power.  There's the temperature change stuff everyone was talking about before, but if your computer is colder than the dew point, then turning it on will cause condensation.  And you can guess what happens when water starts forming inside your computer.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 03:05:56 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2005, 12:42:26 PM »
Just got my Exel bill and an info brochure that stated: That a bill of $50

is 67% for electricity andd 33% for delivering it to your house.

Nuff said !!!!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 12:42:26 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

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Re: A few questions about phantom loads.
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2005, 04:09:32 AM »
"Just got my Exel bill and an info brochure that stated: That a bill of $50

is 67% for electricity andd 33% for delivering it to your house."


Tell them you'll pay for the Electric and will pick up in person, then take your batteries to the company office :)


Maybe that is what this stupid meter charge is here. We pay $12 per month to have the meter in the yard rather we use power or not, and they don't even read the meter, we have to then figure out our own bill. Once in a while they read the meter to make sure people are paying correctly, but like once or twice a year maybe.


Or maybe it's a double whammy, perhaps we get charge meter charge, elecric used, and delevery? I don't get a bill since I have to figure it out myself.


I just pay for 6 months based on the useage of the last 6 months and we catch up next time if I have a credit or owe them more.


My bill total for 6 months is around $250-$300 max. And I expect it to be lower soon!!

« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 04:09:32 AM by (unknown) »