Author Topic: Magnetic Amplifiers  (Read 3431 times)

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BeenzMeenzWind

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Magnetic Amplifiers
« on: May 01, 2005, 08:26:41 AM »
I was just reading the posts on 'How to charge a battery' and it sparked a memory from training...


There was some discussion about the ease of generating AC from 120v using cheap components to build a square wave inverter. The guy said the transformers might serve to 'sine-out' the square wave.


It just reminded me of something I was taught years back. I don't remember the exact details but...


If memory serves, Magnetic Amplifiers were used before the advent of power electronics to generate really big power supplies to shift large items with motors. The example we were shown was of the gun turrets on a WWII German battleship. Scharnhorst, I think?


Anyway, the idea was that the mag amp slaved azimuth and elevation commands from the gun director (just a posh gun sight, I think?) to the turrets themselves, so they aimed whereever the gunner pointed his sight.


None of this is particularly relevant, but there was a device called a Saturable Reactor involved in the system. I'm pretty sure that the diagram showed a square (ish) wave going in and a sine wave coming out. I think that was amplified and drove the motors.


Does anyone else know anything about these things? Information seems a bit thin on the ground and my training manuals are long lost.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 08:26:41 AM by (unknown) »

K3CZ

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Re: Magnetic Amplifiers
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2005, 08:51:20 AM »
BMW -

Well, you have the basics right - MagAmps(even big ones) are a hundred years old and predate power electronics considerably.  However, the basic MagAmp is an only an AC power amplifier of rather sluggish characteristics.  It uses variable DC to control the saturation level of a steel core magnetically coupling together AC input and output coils.   As such, the output waveform varies wildly in its shape factor over its load range.  

I have also been told that the use of any reactive load elements to improve the output waveform (capacitive or inductive) of an MSW inverter will play havoc with its operability.                     Van            K2CZ
« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 08:51:20 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Magnetic Amplifiers
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2005, 08:52:54 AM »
You won't have any luck turning square waves into sine waves with a saturable reactor, the output waveforms are very distorted. Until the core saturates there is virtually no current then it rises very steeply to a value limited by the circuit resistance.


The only magnetic saturation device that might offer an improvement in waveform is the ferro resonant constant voltage transformer where core saturation combined with circuit resonance produces a fairly constant voltage and with suitable design the waveform can be fairly good. Some early inverters used this idea but efficiency is poor.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 08:52:54 AM by (unknown) »

BeenzMeenzWind

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Re: Magnetic Amplifiers
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2005, 09:55:31 AM »
Just a thought. The 'circuit' (is it still a circuit with magnetic devices?) was pretty complicated, if I remember correctly. I know beans about how the thing did what it did. Didn't understand it properly even then, lol.


Nice to get an answer though. Would have bugged me for days until I managed to look it up.


Thanks

« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 09:55:31 AM by (unknown) »

bob golding

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Re: Magnetic Amplifiers
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2005, 12:03:18 PM »
hi bmw,

i have an old  automatic voltage regulator that  uses a magnetic amplifier system. i have had it for a looongg time and might get round to doing something with it sometime. think silicon has just about replaced them by now. still beter for those reactive nasty loads like welders and stuff.


bob golding

« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 12:03:18 PM by (unknown) »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Are you maybe thinking of amplidynes?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 04:49:54 PM »
If memory serves, Magnetic Amplifiers were used before the advent of power electronics to generate really big power supplies to shift large items with motors. The example we were shown was of the gun turrets on a WWII German battleship. Scharnhorst, I think?


Are you sure you're not thinking of an "amplidyne"?


This is an AMPLIfying DYNamo - a big piece of rotating machinery.


Basic idea:


 - You have a BIG motor attached to a BIG specialized generator - which looks something like a wound-field DC generator.  The motor provides all the output power as mechanical energy.


 - The input signal drives the field magnetization of the generator.  Very little power is required here:  It's just a field winding with a bunch of turns of moderately fine wire.  Magnetization is proportional to current.  Power consumed is the resistive loss plus the momentary burst of energy input required to build the field (or it gives back such a burst if you're collapsing the field.)


 - The spinning rotor generates an output voltage, proportional to the magnetization (and thus to the input current).  The power all comes from the mechanical motion and the amount produced is limited only by the magnetization, the rotor, brush, and load wiring resistance, and the input horsepower, not by the input power.  Output power can be enormous.  Gain is set by the windings and the (typically constant) rotation speed.


 - However:  The wiring resistance of a winding needed to generate a field DOES put SOME limit on the amount of gain you can get from a single stage of amplification, given a low-energy input signal source.  So (at least) one additional stage of amplification is desirable.  There's a convenient hack:


 - Instead of going to drive an output, the output of the FIRST set of brushes is directly connected to a second field coil, which produces a second field magnetization at 90 degrees to the one produced by the original input signal (or the multipole equivalent of a 90-degree field).  The winding resistance produces a current directly proportional to the input voltage generated at the brushes.  This additional field generates another voltage on the SAME ROTOR WINDING, which appears at 90 degrees from the first one (or the multipole equivalent) on the same commutator and is picked off by a SECOND pair of brushes.


Two stages of this sort of amplification can turn the tiny signal voltage you get from a pair of selsyns (another motor/generator/rotary transformer hack) you can twist with your fingers into hundreds of kilowatts, suitable for flinging the guns on battleships around.  (If you really want more gain you can hang a baby-version preamplifier on the end of the shaft of the main machine and get two more stages - but it's not really necessary.)  One dynamo for elevation, a second for yaw.  Both can be powered by the same motor, all three pieces built into the same frame and sharing a shaft (and a cooling fan B-) ).


And if something makes the guns stick or the motor stall (like getting a shell through the gearing), feeding an error signal to the amplidyne that the stalled motor can't move to correct will cause a LOT of magic smoke to escape VERY quickly, from the amplidyne, the motor, and maybe the wiring between them.  B-)

« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 04:49:54 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Are you maybe thinking of amplidynes?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2005, 04:56:17 PM »
And if something makes the guns stick or the motor stall (like getting a shell through the gearing) ...


In case it wasn't obvious, in THIS paragraph the stalled motor is the one driven by the amplidyne's output, not the motor spinning the guts of the amplidyne.


...


Anyhoo:  You have this piece of rotating machinery bolted down in an out-of-the-way section of the turret.  Power and error signals go in, high-energy motor control power comes out.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 04:56:17 PM by (unknown) »

wooferhound

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Re: Magnetic Amplifiers
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2005, 05:31:40 PM »
Here are a coupla Google searches for devices that Focus magnetic fields...


Scalarbeamer

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=SCALARBEAMER&btnG=Search


Magnetic Beam Amplifier

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Magnetic+Beam+Amplifier%22&btnG=Search

« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 05:31:40 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Are you maybe thinking of amplidynes?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2005, 01:20:55 AM »
The amplidyne was the most common power amplifier before electronics and was faster and capable of higher gain than the magnetic amplifier but it is not the same thing.


The magnetic amplifier is a refined version of the saturable reactor with series diodes in the power windings to aid saturation in one direction and to make it work full wave the cores are usually in pairs with control windings opposing or on the outer limbs of a 3 leg core and the control winding is wound on the centre leg where the ac flux doesn't pass.


As mentioned, a common use was for automatic voltage regulators where their simplicity and lack of maintenance made them preferable to amplidynes which were very fussy on brush and commutator maintenance.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 03, 2005, 01:20:55 AM by (unknown) »