Author Topic: inverters  (Read 3800 times)

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jmk

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inverters
« on: July 24, 2005, 03:56:21 PM »
  I have been looking at the prices on inverters. I don't understand why 48 volt inverters have to be a couple grand more than the 12 and 24 volt inverters. This brings me back to saying is it werth it to have a 48 volt sytem? Do you really lose that much power in the lines to make it worth spending a couple extra thousand dollars?


Editors Note:


This one is so basic I thought we should revisit why a higher voltage battery bank is better from a technical standpoint even though we have covered this in detail many times in the past. And of course whether it is "worth it" is always a good question.


Editor.


« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 03:56:21 PM by (unknown) »

terry5732

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Re: inverters
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2005, 10:11:58 AM »
I've been wondering why anyone would want 48 V at all? Or even 24. Makes no since to me unless you are running 24 or 48 VDC motors. Line loss is only an issue if you are trying to transmit DC long distance, Merely transmit as AC and rectify AT battery.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 10:11:58 AM by (unknown) »

John II

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Re: inverters
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2005, 11:50:33 AM »
I don't have all the answers : )


But I do know that it has a lot to do with your final intended size of your alternative energy setup.


Use 12v dc for really small systems, RV's and cabins.


Use 24 volts dc for larger of the above and small homes.


Use 48 volts dc for larger homes, shops etc.


Use 120 volts dc for extremely large homes and power needs.


Where the cut off points are on one voltage to the next I'm not sure, and maybe a Pro can tell us. But the voltage you use has every thing to do with your final anticipated load usage 20 years down the road.


It is a huge mistake to start with a low voltage system when you will eventually need a higher voltage system... It will cost you thousands of dollars for making that mistake. For instance your 12v copper wires may become as large as 0000 in size.. This is the size of garden hose and will cost a fortune. In such a case the planned voltage should have been much higher in the first place.


Also don't make the mistake of comparing inverter prices with the cheepie mass marketed inverters versus the extra heavy duty inverters that are designed to work 24 hrs a day year after year. There is a large difference between an inverter that's designed to just work one or two weekends a year out camping versus one made to run your house loads day in and day out.


John II

« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 11:50:33 AM by (unknown) »

aogden

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Re: inverters
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2005, 12:11:19 PM »
Terry, It would be easier to help you knowing more about your system needs. Size and purpose; batterie bank capacity. The solar or turbine lead lenghts are also an important consideration. Do you plan on powering your whole house? Do you need sine wave output?  Will you be using solar or wind?  Consider Ohm's law, with 48 Volts the line losses are one quarter so you can use less copper.  If you don't intend on a large or continuoulsy online system I would give a 12 Volt system a closer look. The cumulative losses can be significant in a high power system meant to power a home in which case higher Voltage may have more merrit. Be weary of the budget inveters they can be unreliable.  That said my feature rich $279 PMP-3000 Coleman has worked well for intermittant use, the no load current is rather large though. http://store.yahoo.com/kitchenhome/co30wadctoac.html  

Regards, Napa Adrian.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 12:11:19 PM by (unknown) »

John II

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Re: inverters
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2005, 12:21:02 PM »
I should have mentioned the following thoughts:


In A.E. systems there are many loads that are more efficient being driven directly rather than through an inverter. So you will need dc wires to those loads.


Also redundancy is a factor. If everything on your property including your night light is dependent on one or two large inverters and those inverters die from a lighting strike, then your whole system is down... nothing will work. But if a lot of your items are able to run directly off of DC then they will keep operating even when no inverter is operational.


Even inverters can only handle a certain size of DC wire running to them. If you got a huge inverter, chances are it's got to be a higher voltage inverter, because even if it sets right next to your batteries, you'll probably not be able to find large enough wire to hook it up. And your jumpers from battery post to post would be enormous.


John II

« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 12:21:02 PM by (unknown) »

richhagen

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Re: inverters
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2005, 12:24:19 PM »
Hello, I will attempt to give you my perspective on this.

The simple answer is that it depends upon what you are trying to do and the current costs of the components. But below is a more detailed look at what the performance differences will be.


I submit the below example for your consideration.  Hopefully my math is correct.


First, some physics definitions:


Watts = Volts * Amps


Ohm's law, V=IR  Where V=voltage, or in the case of a conductor  this can be looked at as voltage drop.  If the Voltage is in Volts, the Current is in Amps, and the resistance is in Ohms, then you can directly plug into this equation.


Power equation, P=IV where P is the power, I is the current, and V is the voltage.  If power is in Watts, Current is in Amps, and Voltage is in Volts, you can directly plug into this equation.


Example 1  (these have been simplified for use as an example)

If one wanted to move 200 watts of power from 4 12 Volt solar panels to an inverter 100 feet away, and one had a 12 guage cable, how much power would be lost in the cables as heat for a 12V system, and for a 48V system?


For the 12 Volt system, if the panels put out 200 watts arranged in parallel at 12 volts, then from ohms law the current would be 200 = 12 * Amps, or Amps = 16.66

Next we will need to know the resistance of 200 feet of 12 guage wire, remember that it is 100 feet there and 100 feet back round trip for the electrons. We can google wire resistance chart and find a convenient chart that shows that 12 guage copper wire has a resistance of 1.620 Ohms per thousand feet.  Which means that for 200 feet, the resistance would be .324 Ohms.  plugging this back into Ohms law, this means that the voltage drop in the wire is 16.66 Amps*.324 Ohms = 5.39 volts.  The power consumed in the wire would be from the power equation equal to 16.66 Amps * 5.39 volts, or 89.79 Watts.  This would be the power that winds up as heat in the conductor.  That would be nearly half of the power generated.  


For the 48 Volt system, If the panels put out 200 watts at 48V when connected in series, then from ohms law the current would be 200 watts / 48 volts = 4.17 Amps.  The resistance of the 12 guage wire still being .324 Ohms, yeilds a voltage drop calculated from Ohm's Law of 4.17 Amps * .324 Ohms which equals 1.35 Volts.  Plugging this back into the power equation results in a power of 4.17 Amps * 1.35 Volts, or 5.62 Watts.  


In a real system, there would be additional variables as the panels would put out varying voltages depending on load, the resistance of the conductor would vary with temperature, plus many more minor variables.  It should, however, be noted that increasing the voltage by 4 times resulted in reducing the losses in the conductor by 16 times, or the square of the voltage multiplier.


This difference would become more valuable to the system designer the greater the losses in the conductor were.  Therefore, the more power you are moving around, and the further that power has to be moved, the more practical and economical a higher voltage system becomes.


In the example above, one could compensate for the voltage difference to obtain equivalent losses by using a larger conductor.  To do that one would have to replace the 12 guage wire with a larger size such that the power equation yielded a result of 5.62 watts, hence 5.62 Watts = V * 16.66 Amps.  Solving for V, the voltage drop, we obtain .337 Volts.  Plugging this into Ohm's Law and solving for th needed resistance yeilds .0202 Ohm's, or a conductor with less than .101 Ohms resistance per thousand feet.  This would require size 0 wire, which would represent a significant parts and installation cost difference when compared to 12 guage wire.  


When dealing with a remote system of a size suitable to power a cabin with a limited power source, it is likely cheaper to use a higher voltage system than to increase the generating capacity, or wire size to compensate for the losses.  If all you want is a light or two, then a 12V system is likely cheaper especially if the power source is nearby.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 12:24:19 PM by (unknown) »
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jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2005, 02:13:46 PM »
  I have just started building a 12' turbine that will probably produce up to 1500 watts or so. I am just trying to reduce the electric bill. This is acualy going to be more of a hobbie than a electrical reduction. My bill was for 991 KWH. There is no way I will ever get that from alt energy. I plan to make a circut That will power the furnaces, refregeraters, and freezer. Maybe the TV and computer too. This way when I loose grid power I have a back up for the vitals. The well is  240 so I will probably have to suffer without water unless I want to fork out anouther $2999.00 for an extra inverter. I haven't wired the alternater yet. Still trying to figure what works best.If I wanted to keep it simple I would just spend $6,000.00 on a honda gas gnei. I was just so impressed with my Central boiler out door wood furnace That I thought I would try to do something for the electricity. Electricity is a bit harder to replace. When I found this site I was glued to it. I find this very intreging! So I am going to do it anyway. Witch brings me back to developing the system.  
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 02:13:46 PM by (unknown) »

inode buddha

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Re: inverters
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2005, 02:54:24 PM »
If you want to see expensive inverters, take a look at the units used by data centers and hospitals. There is a huge difference between "pro" equipment and recreational stuff like you normally see. I think that has more to do with the price regardless of the voltage. Having said that, I would use as high a voltage as possible, if only to cut down on the wire size and expense.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 02:54:24 PM by (unknown) »

MountainMan

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Re: inverters
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2005, 03:21:54 PM »
I just figured out why I like this (new to me) forum so much.  You guys know some stuff!


Before this thread, I would have been tempted to answer this question, thinking that my experience with RV inverter systems has taught me all I need to know about alternative energy use of inverters.  NOT!


Interesting new look at an old topic...inverter voltage/battery bank topology is effected by your DC sources!  In an RV you rarely find yourself worrying about how many feet of cable there is running out to your wind mill.  8^)


Would using an MPPT charge controller adequately solve this part of the equation though?  I'm thinking maybe 48+ volts from  your remote wind gennie and or remote solar panels coming back to the utility shed where your MPPT charger converts it to 24V at higher current for your battery bank.


Ignoring the input DC for the moment, wouldn't a two inverter system (two 3KW 120VAC "legs" set up to also provide 240VAC) with 24VDC for each one be quite practical for a typical house?  As long as you keep the batteries close to the inverter?  In my experience with RV systems, anything below 200 amps on the DC storage side seems to wind up being pretty practical.


Taking the MPPT idea for the remote DC sources a step further...most of the big honkin inverters are inverter/chargers.  Maybe an off-the-grid system could still make use of those chargers by placing a small 1000watt inverter very near the mill and send 120Vac back to the shed?  Feed that to the AC input of the inverters.  Just a thought.  Of course some of you guys have a lot more than 1000 watts of gennie, so maybe it's not a great idea.


jp

« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 03:21:54 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2005, 03:49:08 PM »
  I will be running everything on 110. Yes, I will be useing an inverter for all the power needs.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 03:49:08 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: inverters
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2005, 07:54:35 PM »
My bill was for 991 KWH. There is no way I will ever get that from alt energy.


Good grief!


What the heck are you running, that you need more than one and a third kilowatt 24/7 !?


A dozen hundred watt incandescents that you leave on day and night?  A really OLD computer you leave running in the back room?  Electirc heat?  A heat-pump air conditioner in the desert?  No insulation in the walls?


Seems to me you should take a look at your electric use and see where it's all going.  (My cabin has electric fan on a propane furnace, a refrigerator/freezer, and an intermittent lamp to scare off the woodpeckers.  The monthly bill shows it's averaging only a hundred watts or so, including the several days per month when we go out there and use the stovetop's belectric grill, oven, microwave, and pump out the well overnight.)

« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 07:54:35 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: inverters
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2005, 07:58:17 PM »
Also:  Some losses in inverters are proportional to current and others produce a fixed voltage drop.  So an inverter that runs from a higher source voltage can be more efficient using the same technology for its semiconductors.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 07:58:17 PM by (unknown) »

veewee77

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Re: inverters
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2005, 08:31:20 PM »
2 inverters connected together to produce 240VAC would NOT work unless they are specifically designed to be able to be connected that way.


Doug

« Last Edit: July 24, 2005, 08:31:20 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2005, 12:32:14 AM »
  I just found a Xantrex/trace inverter 48 volt 2400 watt. Its on sale for $1,800.00 from the ariginal price of $2,800.00. They also have them so you can hook two together to get 240 volts. I wasn't planing on spending so much but, It looks like I will have to if I want to hook up the wind turbine to the house. wholesale solar.com is where I was looking.  
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 12:32:14 AM by (unknown) »

bruce

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Re: inverters
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2005, 01:22:09 PM »
     You sound like I did about 2 yrs ago, JMK. I put in a forced air wood burner, I heat the house now 100% with wood, in central Nebraska. Then I got into this board, and before I knew it, I had plans of the house on my grid, and even selling power back to the utility company. I've learned a heck of a lot since then, and have a genny I built using this board. I learned how much it takes to produce that KW, verses how easy it is to use it. I learned conservation is a huge part of it. Its alot easier to conserve it than to produce it. I use about what you do in a month, and as much as I wanted to run the everything on it, it wasnt going to happen. But I do run acouple outbuildings on it, my barn and workshop. If the wind is blowing good for a time, I'll run an extension cord from my shop over to the lilly pond pump and run it for a day or so.

     I do know that if my wind system and small solar array pay themselves off before I die, I'll be surprised. But I dont care, its become a wonderful hobby, I've learned so much about physics and the electrical world I'd do it again. I even got a job at the electrical dept of the local utilities because of what I learned.

      So I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I'm just saying stay realistic. Depending on what you have for a system, you may not provide as much as you anticipate. Keep messing around with numbers of what certain things use and what you think you will generate, and see how it all sizes up.

     Best of luck to you, and stay on this board, there are alot of smart and experienced people on here.


                            Later, Bruce

« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 01:22:09 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2005, 06:07:48 PM »
  Thanks bruce, At least I'm not the only one who uses 900 pluss KWH of electricity. Yes, I did think at first I was going to get a wisper 200 and be selling power back to the electric company! Then I started to figure it out. Then it didn't make sence to buy a wisper modle when I can build one with the help of Hugh and you fine people on this board. When I loged on to this board and seen Dans Big seventeen foot turbine I was hooked! Good work and propaganda Dan! I was going to build His same geni but then I figured out you cant get the magnets he used. I didnt want to xeperament so I asked are budy Hugh if he had any plans for a larger turbine, and he said yes. I bought a set of plans for his Durika wind geni. Its a 12' turbine. The plan says 1,000 watts, but they set the tail up to furl early because they didn't have the controls or batery bank to take all of the power in. The tail is to be set for 300 foot pounds. they only set it up for 190 to get the 1,000 watts. I figure I could see as much as 1700 watts. I only plan to run a few things that I would need if I lost grid power. The thing other than cost is more cost due to lightning strikes. I have a hundred and eight foot deep well. I live in the highest part of south east Michigan, and are well has been hit three times. I'm scared to put the geni tower up, but what the hell! I just bought sixty fet of 1/2" thick  wall, three inch outer diameter pipe. 1600 pounds! It cost me $250 bucks  
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:07:48 PM by (unknown) »

terry5732

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Re: inverters
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2005, 06:11:52 PM »
I guess I didn't fully express what I meant earlier. In a generator setup (not solar) you are producing AC which is very easy to manipulate. So if you are forced to have  a remotely located generator and have long transmission I think it's best done with AC. You can easily run your voltage up with transformer with minimal loss. This will allow you to transmit with relatively  small conductors ( depending on voltage). You could even put out 120VAC for immediate use from say a 12VAC genny. Transformers are everywhere can be readily found once you know what you are looking for. That single little wire on top of most transmission poles carries the ENTIRE POWER for whole neighborhoods. Usually it's about 15KV. I think for most home applications it would be enough to run as 120 or 220 and you can just use a commercial battery charger (or two or three) on the step down side. I guess I'm just an AC teslahead.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:11:52 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2005, 06:22:11 PM »
  THe geni is going to sit about 120' away from the house.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:22:11 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2005, 06:29:10 PM »
 So then I would be running a wire from every coil to the batery bank? Ten coils Ten wires? This would probably still be cheaper than paying the extra $1,000 on a 48 volt inverter.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:29:10 PM by (unknown) »

RP

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Re: inverters
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2005, 06:52:00 PM »
JMK,


If its a 3-phase genny then you'll just need 3 conductors to the house.  There have been discussions on this here before.  Its not that AC travels better, its just that AC can be easily and efficiently converted using transformers to swap amps for volts.


An example is to wind your genny for 120volts at cut-in speed.  You'll be using more turns of finer wire.  Others here can help you determine how many and what gauge.  You can send 1.2KW at only 10amps this way using relatively small conductors back to the house.


At the house you'll need three transformers (1per phase) to convert 120v down to say 12 or 24 volts and then rectify this and send it to your battery bank.  These could be battery charger transformers or even rewound microwave transformers.


Power companies do this all the time.  That's how they send megawatts for miles through wire not much bigger than the battery cables on your car.


Hope this helps

« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 06:52:00 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: inverters
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2005, 08:05:04 PM »
At the house you'll need three transformers (1per phase) to convert 120v down to say 12 or 24 volts ...


You can get away with two, but your transformer losses will be greater.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 08:05:04 PM by (unknown) »

scottsAI

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Re: inverters
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2005, 12:51:08 AM »
Don't feel bad. I use 1.5MwHr per month of power.

This summer has been hot, I expect it to be much higher with the AC.

Have fun.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 12:51:08 AM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: inverters
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2005, 08:06:19 AM »
  Thanks to all of you for your imput and help. I have a lot to learn about  Electricity, and may seem stupid, but please bare with me. With your help I can figure this out.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 08:06:19 AM by (unknown) »

Bruce S

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Re: inverters
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2005, 09:35:30 AM »
jmk-

careful--- that's how it all starts.

First it's just 1 circuit then just a few more items and before you know it..

« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 09:35:30 AM by (unknown) »
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