Author Topic: Solar Inverter Sizing - Grid Tie with Battery Backup  (Read 9269 times)

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valterra

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Solar Inverter Sizing - Grid Tie with Battery Backup
« on: January 11, 2010, 06:04:08 PM »
Local solar dealers designed me a system:


4840 Watts total

22 x 220W Panels

5KW Inverter


Grid-Interactive. Shipped, installed, wired and tested for just over $23k.  With incentive from the power company and tax credit, the total system price is approx $2.46 / watt.


Now, this doesn't include batteries or the idea of a battery backup system.  The proposed inverter is an SMA brand.  SMA has a "sunny island" product that supposedly can be added ON TOP of the existing system (for around $6k - no thanks).


The Outback brand inverters seem to be perfectly happy accepting a mixture of batteries and Grid.  But Outback's stuff tops out at around 3kw.  The SMA stuff is rated higher, but I don't see something that accepts batteries as well as grid-interaction.


My eventual goal is to have battery backup.  Similar to this drawing many of you have seen:



Below is the wiring of the design they are proposing.  On the diagram, the major difference is that the inverter is tied into the 220 side.  What is missing from the diagram is how radically different the panel wiring is.


As best I can tell, the diagram above is wired in a series-parallel group to a low(er) voltage of around, say 60 VDC.  The diagram below has them wired at upwards of 600 VDC.


The Outback charge controller / inverter won't handle above the range of, say, 70 volts.  The SMA inverter won't even start working until it gets, say, 350 volts.  So the two are radically different.



My solar guy also told me that the Outback inverters made for battery use will not work properly without the batteries.  He said they've programmed them to use the pass-through mode (no batteries, straight grid-tie) and they just won't function correctly.


Feedback anyone?  Do the two designs have to be mutually-exclusive?  Or am I missing a simple answer, like a grid-powered battery charger that skips the circuits in these diagrams?  Or will I need 2 (or more) Outback inverters for a 5+ KW system?


Thanks Guys

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 06:04:08 PM by (unknown) »

electronbaby

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 06:42:58 PM »
There is nothing wrong with Outback inverters, or SMA inverters. Both are great at doing what they do respectively. The question lies in figuring out what YOU want to accomplish with the system, both in the short term, and in the long term.


Outback inverters rely on batteries for storage. The inverter is powered by those batteries, and this makes a battery bank absolutely necessary to the system functionality. Using a charge controller to charge the batteries with the PV, you are limited solely by the input voltage of the charge controller (if its an MX60, this is around 110v MAX, but may be a lot higher when boB and Robin officially release their magic box :-)  It then bucks down the PV DC to battery voltage so that the batteries can be charged and the inverter then functions normally. With a single outback inverter, it will sell power to the grid @120vAC from the batteries. If a single 3.6kw inverter is not enough capacity for you, they are modular and they can be stacked (up to 36kw) for 240 single phase as well.


The SMA does it a little differently. These inverters will couple on the AC side of things. This allows you to install a grid tie only system first off, and then be able to add battery back-up later on down the road by adding a Sunny Island inverter to the mix (and a battery bank of course). You wire the inverter and batteries and then simply connect it to your AC service panel just as you did with the first inverter and it will allow both inverters to sync on the AC side and give you the option of having battery back-up.


It is just two different ways of doing things.

If you are unsure of if to go grid tie, or off grid, or a mixture of them both at first, it will almost ALWAYS be more expensive later on down the road regardless of which inverter you chose at first, thats just the nature of it.


I hope I didnt confuse you more, and Im sure others will chime in. All the info is available on Outbacks website (which has an awesome forum) and the SMA site, if you were so inclined to do your homework before you go any further.


No offense to other solar contractors, but its my experience that many of them will talk you out of a battery storage system because they either don't understand them, or they don't want to have a maintenance issue later on down the road (yes, batteries do need care and affection) Just my opinion.


If you want to talk about overall efficiency, grid tie high voltage string inverters definitely win out. But, if back-up is something you need, then you have to deal with battery losses anyway, as so far , thats has always been a fact of life.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 06:42:58 PM by (unknown) »
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valterra

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 08:36:17 AM »
I guess part of the solution I need to honestly answer is just how much backup I'd really want / need.  


Specifically, Would a grid-tie-only solution would allow me to cut off the grid connection?  For example, if there was a power outage, or if I was feeling feisty, could I go outside and throw the big "grid" switch into the Open position and see how well I could live within my means?


I know that would be riding pretty rough, as every time the sky got cloudy, the television would go out.  Batteries would be the great equalizer / buffer there.  That being said, would this (diagram) be a better (cheaper?), long-term solution?  I diagrammed the two separate systems on the top and bottom.  



I am more than willing to do my homework, rest assured.  Those rough numbers for voltage for SMA and Outback were from reading their literature.  I guess what I'm not understanding is why a $6,000 SMA "Sunny Island" would be required when an Outback Inverter is around $1900.


What am I missing here?  :-)


By the way, my goal:  Have as much of my energy usage as possible from solar to allow myself to be (feel) independent from the Grid.  


While the grid is available, I want to use as little of it as possible - sipping from it during heavy loads, and pouring back during light loads.


When (if) the grid becomes unavailable, I eventually would like a system where everything still works.  If I could use solar hot while the grid is down, that would be fine.  Battery backup system would be the eventual goal.  During a power outage, I am less worried about having critical loads being separately-wired.  We would just turn off what we didn't need - which, for the most part - we do anyway.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 08:36:17 AM by (unknown) »

WA3PYI

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 09:48:04 AM »
Hello, I'm a newbe here so please go easy on me if my input is not really appropiate for this discussion.  


I have been researching the net for a similar solution.  I want a system that can accept PV input and wind.  I would like to be grid-tied as rate caps for our electric company are coming off at the end of this year and rates are expected to jump considerably.  I would also like battery backup just in case.  I came accross the Xantrex XW series inverter/charger.  It can be a grid-tie system using PV, wind or hydro, and it uses a 48v battery bank for backup. More info here:


http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/246/p/2454/pt/18/product.asp


This seems to be an nicely packaged all-in-one solution but maybe I'm missing something.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:48:04 AM by (unknown) »

electronbaby

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 10:33:57 AM »
Yes, the Xantrex system works ok as well. I personally would go with an Outback, but thats just me. One really also has to look at the cost of the associated balance of system components as well. The xantrex will require more disconnects, their AC/DC enclosures, and a higher overall copper wiring cost, along with the cost of batteries, DC/AC breakers, and charge controllers. The Outback uses their Flexware  system to accomplish housing all the AC/DC connections and wiring, SO...the cost of the inverter alone, is not the whole picture. Again, there is nothing wrong with this, it simply has to be taken into account if you go with a battery based inverter. What I was saying earlier, is that the high voltage string inverters (grid tie only) have a lower balance of system cost because you are dealing with much fewer components. Thats what makes them attractive. Their cost vs. payback is a relatively small ratio, and in areas where you have reliable grid power, this makes many customers feel good.


As far as the power ratings of the SMA vs. Outback, the Sunny Island, is a 6kw inverter (i think) in one package that is why it tends to be more expensive.


Grid tie PV systems are FAR from energy independence, and this is what bugs me. If you are shopping around, and your main goal is to be "independent" then by all means go off grid. The technology is and has been around for many years, its time proven, and it works well. The only thing you need to realize, is that the system will be more expensive, take longer to "pay off" and it will me more maintenance. If this is ok, well then....its ok. If you are planning on playing around with battery based grid tie wind, then having the Outback or the xantrex may be of more importance to you.


I live off grid myself, and wouldnt have it any other way and Im sure this thought is shared amongst many of us here on this board. In my opinion, the SMA is a good inverter and I think it is marketable more to the individual that does not like to tinker with their equipment. The Outback and Xantrex (mainly the Outback) is much more versatile as far as programming and fine tuning goes, so this may play into your decision as well.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 10:33:57 AM by (unknown) »
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DamonHD

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 01:04:59 PM »
Also consider the SMA 'Backup blocker' which comes in a range of sizes and will cope with down-stream normal grid-tie and so can be added after the event.


I'm pure grid-tie (other than a few % for a tiny off-grid system), but I may retrofit something much like the SMA 'backup blocker'.


So you don't have to choose between grid-independent and high-efficiency grid-tie...


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:04:59 PM by (unknown) »
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WA3PYI

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 01:55:59 PM »
Roy,


I thought that a grid-tied system needed to be 240V (in the USA) for it to feed power back into the grid.  The Outback systems that I looked at all have a 120V outputs.  How do these connect to the grid?


Lee

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:55:59 PM by (unknown) »

electronbaby

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 02:58:48 PM »
usually with an 2:1 autotransformer. Or you could series stack two units for 240v single phase.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 02:58:48 PM by (unknown) »
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dnix71

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 03:08:19 PM »
I have a coworker who has grid-tie with battery backup. The battery backup added about 15% to the total cost, but if the grid fails (hurricanes here in south Florida), she and her husband can ride for three days with NO sun at all. With normal sun, they can stay off-grid indefinitely. They had to install a natural gas powered generator to run the a/c off grid. Even 5.5kw solar won't run a 5 ton a/c very long.


They sell back to the grid sometimes, it all depends on how careful they are with power. The whole setup cost $55k before the state rebate of $20k. It would be even cheaper now because of federal incentives and tax credits.


Grid-tie only works if you have a grid to tie it to, otherwise, without battery backup, you'll be in the dark just like your neighbors.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:08:19 PM by (unknown) »

valterra

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 03:39:26 PM »
So when the grid goes out, you can't ride straight from your solar panels?  Is this because there's no balancing mechanism?  By balancing, I mean the way a battery pack would create a path for extra electricity to go?  


For example, if it was a sunny day, and you were generating 4.5 kw and your total loads were over 4.5k, you'd trigger the inverter's under-voltage trip.  But if you're running, say, 1k of loads, you could keep running those as long as the sun is shining, right?


Even if this would require manually throwing a switch outside, isn't this possible?

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:39:26 PM by (unknown) »

valterra

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 03:41:57 PM »
All the grid-tie stuff they're offering is 240v.  The Outback off-grid, battery-powered inverter in my circuit would be 110v and would consequently run the 110v side of my breaker panel.  All of my "essential" loads are 110v.  


We can do without the air conditioner, but we can't do without the freezer full of meat.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:41:57 PM by (unknown) »

RandomJoe

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 04:07:14 PM »
No.  A grid-tie system MUST shut down if the grid goes down, for safety.  (This is called "anti-islanding".)  If it were to stay on, and you didn't disconnect from the grid (say, turning off your main breaker) you would be backfeeding power into the power lines.  Most likely your system would then be trying to power your neighbors' homes and overload.  But there's also the possibility a lineman working on a downed line thinks he's grabbing a dead line, but...


Even a battery-backed grid-tie system shuts down the grid side of the system when the power is out.  What they DO have is an additional subpanel that you move your critical loads to.  That subpanel is then powered by either passing through AC during normal operation or by switching to the internal inverter when the grid is down.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 04:07:14 PM by (unknown) »

RandomJoe

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 04:14:23 PM »
Adding a bit more...


Another reason a grid-tie inverter shuts off without grid is that it is designed to sync with the existing (grid) power in terms of voltage and frequency.  If it didn't, there'd be all kinds of fun fireworks...  So, if the grid goes away, it doesn't have anything to work against.


This leads to one possible option that I've heard discussed before, disconnect from the grid then supply your own "grid" for it to work against.  Say, with a generator.  But there are some catches to that.


First, the generator would have to be stable enough in frequency and voltage for the inverter to like it.  Cheaper models may not work at all, and many generators will sag/surge the voltage (and for non-inverter types frequency) as loads come and go.  Each time that happens the grid-tie inverter may disconnect.


Second, if the GT inverter pushes more power into the system than you are using at that time you will wind up backfeeding the generator - and unless it is designed to handle that situation, IT may go up in smoke.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 04:14:23 PM by (unknown) »

valterra

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 04:24:22 PM »
I'm aware of having to shut off the Grid connection when it goes out.  What I'm wondering is how well the system will operate without the grid.  If you kick the mains disconnect, will all grid-tied inverters fail?  That doesn't sound right.


Because we've discussed inverters being grid-tied, but not grid-interactive.  The difference being that a grid-tied system, in the strictest definition, is "tied" into your house wiring (sub-panel), but a grid-interactive system interfaces with the mains supply.  A grid-tied inverter (using that definition) would still function if you cut off grid power, right?  After mains power shuts off, its transfer switch makes it non grid-interactive.


The Outback GTFX3048 has both DC and AC inputs.  AC would be the grid, and DC would be your panels.  The entire thing would shut down if the grid shuts down?  That's an over-simplification, isn't it?  The grid-tied inverters have transfer switches in them that "shut off" the grid circuit, so the power still flows from the DC (panels, batteries, whatever) to the house when the AC inputs lose power.


Am I wrong?

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 04:24:22 PM by (unknown) »

dnix71

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 05:26:14 PM »
You could run off batteries all the time and use the grid to keep them charged if the sun doesn't shine, but then you need an inverter large enough and durable enough to run everything you own 24/7/365.


It's cheaper to run from the grid, sell power when you can, and have an automatic transfer switch flip over to a smaller inverter that just powers critical loads, like lights and refridgerator. That's how businesses usually do their battery backups. Our shop lights, phones and server are protected by an inverter run from a closet full of SLA's.


Since we don't have solar panels on the roof, if the power fails, we have to go outside and connect cables and fire up the 400KW Volvo Penta before the batteries drain.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 05:26:14 PM by (unknown) »

fabricator

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing - Grid Tie with Battery
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 06:08:25 PM »
That is a lot of watts!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 06:08:25 PM by (unknown) »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Solar Inv Sizing - Grid Tie Battery Backup
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 07:30:34 PM »
A grid-tie system can be 120 or 240 (unless there's a regulation I'm not aware of).  If it's 120 the pole transformer handles it just fine.


But you want a 240-capable system if you have any 240 volt loads.  Typically these would be:  electric oven, stove, clothes drier, or water heater, central air conditioner or heat pump, very large window air conditioner or heat pump, motors in large workshop equipment, or a well pump.  Also:  even if your house has only 120V loads, if you have a lot of them you may not want to switch them all over to one side of the 240V drop.


Of course if you're going RE you might want to look into cutting back on some of those electric loads.  B-)


Heating, in particular, is an ENORMOUS drain.  You really don't want to do it from photovoltaic - you'd go broke buying the panels.  Meanwhile thermal solar panels are extremely cheap, easy to homebrew, and collect maybe five times the heat from a given area.  Heat can be stored in a water tank for use at night.  (Or it can be stored in the house itself, with good insulation and lots of thermal mass.)

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 07:30:34 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 07:38:55 PM »
A standalone system needs some storage.  Otherwise a moment of cloud cover or a lull in the wind causes a brownout.


The simple way to do a grid-tied system with backup storage is just to do a standalone system with grid tie and a sell option.  Then the inverter automatically syncs to the grid and then ties the two together when the grid is working or comes back from an outage (running like a grid-tie-only with a battery buffer on the renewable energy source), and cuts off from the grid while continuing to furnish AC to your loads if the grid gets into trouble.  Just what you want.


If you've sized it too small for all your loads just have your low-priority loads on the line side of the grid tie function and your "must haves" on the inverter side.  Two wiring subpanels are easy.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 07:38:55 PM by (unknown) »

wdyasq

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BOHICA with Scoop
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2010, 08:10:27 PM »
I am in the process of building trackers for a 3kW system using the Kaneka 60W panels. I too live in Texas.


There is a minefield of false or confusing information on net metering, transmission and distribution service provider and the retail electric provider.


To get the claimed 'rebait', oops that is rebate, one must have his system installed by one who has the proper contacts and contracts, "customers must work with registered Service Providers". I'm as sure this is 100% honest as I am sure politicians are here to help those who vote for them. One also agrees to a 5 year period of checking on the system......


I am going to install a system. I'm not real sure if it will qualify for rebates. I'm not positive I will be 'grid interactive'. I do know some of the retail electric providers are claimed to be easier to deal with than others and IF one decides to grid-tie they are required to use a special meter installed at their own expense by the 'Transmission and Distribution Service Provider' (TDSP in this new speak).


Right now, I'm looking at the problem. I'm trying to figure out if it will be more financially viable to be 'grid-interactive or have a separate off-grid system.


Ron

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 08:10:27 PM by (unknown) »
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hydrosun

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Re: BOHICA with Scoop
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 09:32:08 PM »
I've also wondered about this myself. Does the rebate or other incentive pay if you have to pay a higher price for equipment that qualifies and a higher price for an officially sanctioned installer? To do a grid intertie you need UL listed equipment and have enough knowledge to navigate the utility requirements. In our area a separate meter is required that can cost $500 if you have battery backup. Engraved signs to identify high voltage cost $100. A safe off grid or grid backup system is much easier and less expensive to accomplish. A system I installed in September is still winding it's way through the approvals.

Chris
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:32:08 PM by (unknown) »

valterra

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Long post - grab a coffee - take a nap after.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 06:49:00 AM »
Not sure where you are in TX.  I've read about people having problems with TXU up in the DFW area.  Oncor here in Austin metro has been more than friendly and helpful thus far.  Their grid-tie guy explained that there are two ways to go.  One in through him, where I simply build the system and they send someone out to inspect.  The second is to go through a pre-screened contractor.  The latter (contractor) option qualifies you for the rebate.


I was also skeptical about using their approved contractors.  However, the first thing you'll notice when you research, is that there are a TON of them.  I'm thinking somewhere near 100.  That's lots of competition.  


Now, the first people I talked to had an "easy, turn-key" solution using micro-inverters.  When I tried to have them lay out the costs between parts and labor, they stonewalled me.  They didn't want me buying my own panels.  They didn't want me to do any of the work.  The basically just want to sell to people who know nothing about solar and don't care how it works or how much it costs.  Their "turn-key" 3.45kw system was $23287.50 plus tax, bringing the grand total to $7.03 / watt (installed).  This also included a 75 cent-per-watt surcharge because I have a two-story house.  Let me get this straight - my roof is higher off the ground, so you need another $2600?


The second contractor I talked to told me first off that they don't care how high the roof is, as long as they can get onto it.  Also, they said they'd be willing to work with me regarding sourcing panels and whatnot.  They designed a system and gave me a fully-installed quote based upon a couple different wattage ratings.  They gave me itemized lists with all the individual costs.  


With that information, I was able to source out Kyocera panels for cheaper (without 8.25% sales tax) even with shipping.  Instead of a 4840 (their) system for $5.27 / watt installed, I substituted the Kyoceras and kept their labor and mounting, and came up with a 5460 watt system for $4.43 / watt installed.  I would have never been able to do this if they hadn't given me an exact breakdown of costs.  He sent me to PV Watts to check for outputs.  He sent me to SMA's website and gave me the temperature information to plug into their string calculator.  These are all things that you and I may know about, but a crafty contractor would keep from a customer.  For a rip-off artist, nothing's more of a pain than a customer with information, right?


I talked to the sales engineer yesterday and told him what I had come up with.  Not only did he not give me an hassle about it, but he said to give him a few days to let him try to source the panels for even cheaper.  THEN the guy says to me, "Wait, let me see if you can fit 26 of the Kyoceras on your roof," and goes about putting a drawing into his AutoCAD.  This would be a great time for a crooked contractor to lie and say that they won't fit, that they're not compatible, etc.


Instead, he says, "Oh Awesome!  You can actually fit as many as 28 if you wanted."  Because we both use the same calculator, we both know that 28 is too many for the SMA 5000.  He doesn't have the hassle of explaining that to me.


Then he confided in me that my price on Kyoceras is cheaper than what they can get them for.  So he said he needs to go stir the pot at his distributor.  He came up with some other ideas (that I can't mention because I signed an NDA) of ways to come up with the panels for much cheaper.  Basically give him a few days and he's going to try to figure out a way to come up with a lower overall price for me, even with the 8.25% sales tax.  And frankly, if they do, I'd be stupid to go through the hassle of ordering panels myself if the prices are similar.  After all, if they receive a pallet with broken panels, it's their problem.


Anyhow - I know I rambled about that.  But I wanted to pass it on so you know that not everyone is in the strictly Solar Retail (e.g. pre-package, high markup) business.  And we should be skeptical, but not all</u> utility-blessed contractors are evil.


Let me explain that.  They told me they had no problem installing my own brand of panels.  In fact, they don't necessarily have a problem with Kanekas.  But the energy-density of Kanekas is so low that it would take two faces of my roof (over 900 sq ft) to make a 5 kw system.  That's a lot of labor and wasted space, in my opinion.


Further, they are mainly concerned about quality.  They don't install "b" panels even though they tell me that in real life, in most cases, they're just fine.  So why don't they like them?  And why does the Utility get to come inspect?  Because the utility requires the contractor to guarantee the system performance for up to 20 years.  My guy told me that he personally didn't care if I started taking circuits completely off-grid.   But he wanted me to let them know.  He said the utility monitors the outflow and a dip in my production would generate phone calls from Oncor, wondering if the system was still performing properly.


So these guys have a lot on the line, too.  If I get my hands into it and fundamentally alter (negatively) the performance of the system, then those guys start getting phone calls, etc.  And if they start selling systems that don't work well, they risk losing their approval and their listing on the Utility's website, which is how I found them in the first place.


I'm not a shill for this or any company.  And I'm asking a lot of questions about specifics, but many of you know that I'm not new to this whole thing.  I am very involved in the details of this project and am using you guys as my "second opinion" of information I get from them.  So far, I have been very satisfied with my experience with this particular installer
.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 06:49:00 AM by (unknown) »

valterra

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Re: Solar Inverter Sizing
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2010, 07:00:09 AM »
BROWNOUTS.   Yes, yes, yes.  You're right.  That's what I was missing.


Some others on here react violently when told - but you can tell Valterra that he's wrong.  :-)

« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 07:00:09 AM by (unknown) »

DamonHD

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Re: Long post - grab a coffee - take a nap after.
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 12:01:30 PM »
The company that put in my solar has been pretty straight with me similarly, and I'm now working up to the third and final expansion of the system if the local electricity distributor (not the retailer) OKs it (since I'd exceed the threshold below which they cannot refuse) AND the new FiT regime due shortly doesn't mess things up AND the local council goes on being supportive!


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 12:01:30 PM by (unknown) »
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Re: Long post - grab a coffee - take a nap after.
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2010, 08:14:31 PM »
Valterra thanks for all the details.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 08:14:31 PM by (unknown) »