Author Topic: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!  (Read 3133 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« on: February 17, 2005, 08:13:31 AM »
Automatic battery filler, never run dry!


Although we should do lots of things regularly like check water levels and clean posts and many other things it never hurts to have an extra saftey net in case we forget something or sudden oddball things happen.


I was thinking about an auto battery waterer to keep the level correct at all times and tell at a quick glance if any are getting low often or faster than others.

Should be simple enough to make them. Save your old plastic soda bottles, fill with water for the battery, punch hole in cap and seal in a plastic tubbing and screw back on. Place open end of tubbing in battery hole at proper full level. Hang bottles above battery with cap down of course. You'll need one for each hole, otherwise if using one bottle for the all of them one low cell would let water into all of the cells probably over filling the others. So 6 bottles for a 12v battery.

When the water level drops below the tube level air is let in and water let out, when water level rises to tube no more air can enter or water leave so flow is stopped. Batteries should always be at full level and by glancing down the row of bottles you can tell quickly if any are using far more than others which might indicate problems also.


That basic air water suction type idea is used for many things, dog/cat waterers, had one for chickens once too. Even some old magic tricks used that basic idea :)


As long as the open end is below water level water will not flow out of the bottle because of the suction effect and no air can enter.


The only thing off hand I can think of that might be questionable about this is that batteries boil/bubble and if a bubble enters the tube it would be like a tiny amount of air and let out a tiny amount of water? I don't think that would be much of a problem really though, you should use small thin tubbing any way and the bubble has to hit it just right, though it's something to think about and watch if you try this.


I thought about this when I noticed some of my large trojans need water topped off. They aren't too low yet but lower than I want and they got that low alot faster than I expected. I just happend to be looking for bubbles when charging them the last time so I saw they were low, otherwise I would not have actaully been checking them yet.

 These batteries are ones I got as salvage and pulsed charged alot and they are working well and I am heavily using them. So I am probably really boiling them alot lattely, but I need them for mobile power. Charge at home use elsewhere, and this waterer thought won't work to well for this probably since they will be bounced around alot, but for a permanant location it should work fine I think.

 Now I have to check the ones at my rock house as they have been used almost as heavy recently, for those this might work as they are never moved around.

 From now on I will be checking them all more regularly too since I am really abusing them at present.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 08:13:31 AM by (unknown) »

Chiron

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2005, 04:22:56 AM »
The problem I see with this idea it that the acid would diffuse into the water in the bottles, weakening the acid solution.


.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 04:22:56 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2005, 07:37:43 AM »
Hmm, might be something to think about, but would it actaully climb the tube through the water or just effect that at the end of the tube? End of tube should not hurt anything since thats normal level for the water anyway.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 07:37:43 AM by (unknown) »

Chiron

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2005, 09:15:13 AM »
A strong solution will diffuse into a weak solution if both are in contact with each other. Diffusion is a pretty basic concept of Chemistry. Thw ater and acid don't have to circulate to get "mixed". Though a semipermiable membrane between the 2 liquids could keep the acid from migrating into the water bottle  but finding one that will stand up to concentrated Sulphuric acid might be hard to do.


.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 09:15:13 AM by (unknown) »

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2005, 09:41:57 AM »
Hmm. Seems you could just go ahead and buy some recombiner caps and never worry about water levels again.


T

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 09:41:57 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2866
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2005, 10:22:34 AM »
A strong solution will diffuse into a weak solution if both are in contact with each other. Diffusion is a pretty basic concept of Chemistry. The water and acid don't have to circulate to get "mixed".


True.  But in the absense of circulation the time scale is glacial.


The chem lab at the university I attended had a permanent demo of HOW glacial, in a display case built into the wall:  A 6-foot section of laboratory glass tubing had one end sealed and filled with water.  Then a bit of dark, soluble matter (a few crystalis of iodine, i think) were put in the other end and the tube sealed and inverted, so the iodine was at the bottom.  The iodine(?) disolved into the water and colored the lower part of it.  After the water settled down the iodine(?) was free to color the water as far as it could reach.  But the tube was narrow enough, and the case insulated enough, to prevent convection.  So only room-temperature thermal diffusion was active.


The colored portion gradually diffused up the tube.  At a fraction of an inch per year.  Every so many years the case was opened and another tube added, with its initial color level alligned with that of the first tube's initial level.


So I don't think there will be a problem with diffusion.


I DO think there's another problem:


Such feeders work by creating a vacuum in the bottle.  When gas enters the bottle the vacuum is reduced and some water can leave.


When you charge a battery you get bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen gas.  (This is why you lose water in the first place.)  Some of those will enter the tube, releasing water.  They hydrogen and oxygen gas have ENORMOUSLY more volume than the water that was split to form them.  So if even a TINY FRACTION of the bubbles enter the tube your battery will quickly overflow.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 10:22:34 AM by (unknown) »

Chiron

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2005, 04:10:35 PM »
Your point about the bubbles is a good one and I hadn't even thought along those lines.


>A strong solution will diffuse into a weak solution if both are in contact with each

>other. Diffusion is a pretty basic concept of Chemistry. The water and acid don't

>have to circulate to get "mixed".


"True.  But in the absense of circulation the time scale is glacial."


There's a big difference between Dissolved Iodine (I-):(H2O) and Concentrated Sulphuric Acid (H2SO4):(H2O).


Iodine and Sulphuric are both solid crystals in anahydrous form.

Toss a pound of Iodine crystals in a gallon of distilled water and it will pretty much just sit there.


Do the same with a pound of Sulphuric Acid crystals and your going to get a lot of heat and probably start the water boiling with sulphuric Acid fumes filling the air.


Latent heat of solution and ionic activity are totaly different.


Sorry, my education is showing. Worked with concentrated Sulphuric a lot when I was at Micron.


Side note:


Iodine will dissolve readily in an ammonia solution and then react with the ammonia to produce NI3 and H2. The NI3 will precipitate out and if you stir the solution and run it through a Mr. Coffee filter then allow the filter to dry the NI3 is an explosive that will go off with a dirty look.


Caution, ounce per ounce it's 10 times the explosive power of TNT so don't make much of it at a time!      


In small quantities it's pretty harmless except that when it goes off it leaves purple stains on anything nearby. Great for catching people purple handed ;)


Hope Homeland Security doesn't hear about this


.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 04:10:35 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2005, 11:30:50 AM »
"So if even a TINY FRACTION of the bubbles enter the tube your battery will quickly overflow."


Another something to think about I geuss, but I think that's also trival somewhat based on the amount of bubbles NOT entering the tube and the fact the vacum has to be broken to let water out. In other words I may get 1/10 the bubbles into the bottle takeing up 2/10 the space of water, but I lose 10/10 of the water as bubbles leaving the battery. I did not catch most of those, so I think that would even out basically and still work fine.

 Now if I were catching half the bubbles leaving the battery and that is twice the volume of water, I still break even on the volume of the bottle, water, bubbles. 16oz of bubbles hitting open air, 16oz of bubbles in the bottle, 2 X's the volume of 16oz water. But at halfs that 32oz total bubbles still only takes 16oz of the bottle space. Still only letting out equal amount of water from the bottle as the battery used.


If I were to catch all the bubbles, then I have a problem, 1/2 the bubbles would fill the bottle and force out the other half of the water, not good. Hard to fit 32oz of bubbles into a 16oz bottle too :)

So the gas bubbles would over flow.


As for the mixing of the acid and water. I think that would not be very much to worry about now. Though a little might mix, we're not talking about a gallon of water, just a few oz's and it's pretty easy to over fill or under fill a large battery by 1 or 2oz's I think. Plus the acid eventaully goes right back in when the water does, not like we're are throwing it away and always adding fresh which would possibly cause a problem eventually. I actaully gave this a little thought. The smaller the battery maybe the more to worry about it. But for something like those L-16 trojans I dought hanging about 8oz of water over them in a 16oz bottle would have any effect really, even a full 16oz bottle? How much water does each cell hold? I had one that was a little low on all 3 cells and used over a gallon of water to fill it when I first got it. I don't remeber what it took, been awhile, but I'm pretty sure I used one new distilled water and opened a second on just one battery. Probably one that hasn't revived yet, it was from the scrap yard. Those have a pretty large area above the plates just for acid I think, probably holds 32oz or close right there.


When I move the batteries at the remote rock house to another location where they will stay (they are not where I want them now) I will try this. I already started saving soda bottles. I think I have 3 now :)

 I don't drink alot of soda. I did find some flavored bottled water the wife and kid likes, so I can use those soon. It's cheap at about 20cents a bottle too, I wonder if it's distilled. Hmmm, blackberry and strawberry batteries :)


 One thing I am thinking about on this acid migration though is making sure it has no effect on the plastic bottles. I don't think it will, but I will probally just take a few drops from a battery and drop in one to be sure anyway.

 

« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 11:30:50 AM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2005, 12:18:34 PM »
You must have posted that whiole I was posting the other one and was busy elsewhere cause I hadn't seen this post.


What are "recombiner caps" and where do we get them? Might be something I would want to look into and get some.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 12:18:34 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2005, 05:58:36 AM »
There is 'something' in the caps that recombine the O with the H, and drips the water back into the cell, instead of venting gasses out.

They are expensive.

G-
« Last Edit: February 19, 2005, 05:58:36 AM by (unknown) »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Automatic battery filler, never run dry!
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2005, 11:36:23 PM »
"They are expensive."


Never mind then I geuss, it's not like me to buy expensive caps to put on my $5 batteries :)


Maybe when I buy new ones someday??

« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 11:36:23 PM by (unknown) »