Author Topic: Dan B ?  (Read 919 times)

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Jerry

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Dan B ?
« on: March 21, 2005, 03:55:57 AM »
You asked me a question about using a fullwave bridge rectifier per phase on Thurs. March 17th at 6:17  am smt.


Am I goofy or does by babeling have some merrit?


                    JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 03:55:57 AM by (unknown) »

DanB

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Re: Dan B ?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2005, 08:22:33 AM »
Hi Jerry - its hard to say, I wish I had a chaulk board here so we could really discuss it all in detail.  Ive not done testing with it all - so I cannot really say from 'experience'.


I'd just say this...

in a 3 phase machine, wired in Star, there is always some current flowing through all the conductors all the time, in the alternator.  If we rectify each phase, there will be times when there is no current flowing.


Ill try to get into this more later, when I have more time to ramble ;-)

I think in Delta - and perhaps with your 2 phase garbo-gens and the F & P - things might be different, because you are trying to adapt existing windings to a specific application.  In that case, rectifyiong each phase, or coil individually might be the way to go.  In the case of a normal 3 phase alternator - Im fairly sure it makes sense to allow current to flow through all the conductors all the time.  


In a 3 phase machine, wired in Star - our 'output Voltage' is generated basicly by 2 phases, which are 120 deg apart.  So we get the voltage of the first phase, and .73 X the voltage of the 2nd phase.  So it might seem like were not making the best use of our windings, but...  pick any time while this thing is under a load, and there will be current flowing because one, or the other of those phases will be in a 'good' place.  If we rectify them all seperately and wind our coils so that just 1 phase gets us our max. Voltage, then we can either wire in Delta - or we can rectify each phase seperately as you suggest.  If we wire each phase seperately - then all the current from that phase is forced to run through those coils, and when were at t0 Volts in our sine wave, no current is flowing.  During that time - its dead conductor.


I think in low power tests you would not notice a difference between Delta, or rectifying each phase seperately.  You might improve things rectifying each phase seperately if there are misplaced, or unidentical coils in there - which would cause currents to run 'round inside the stator.  But if the stator is perfect, then in low power tests youd probably see little difference.  In higher power tests, I think youd find Delta to be more efficient and act as though resistance is lower.


Its hard for me to explain - I need to think about a better way, perhaps I should do some testing.  It makes sense to me though -  there is no way Id build a 3 phase stator and rectify each phase seperately.  You dont see this done in car alternators,a nd other 3 phase machines - they usually go with Star.  I can see in tests with a F & P, or with a garbogen, which is basicly a 2 phase machine -why you might do this.  In a machine thats specifically designed for the purpose though - I don't think it makes sense to include rectifying each phase seperately into the design.  I think its not necessary, and I believe it would make the machine less efficient.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 08:22:33 AM by (unknown) »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Gary D

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Re: Dan B ?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2005, 08:54:29 AM »
Interesting how Hugh does a 10 coil / 5 phase arrangement on one project, and a 3 phase on another. Perhaps they both have merit? Would be great if he could adress the pro's and con's of each... He's a busy man tho...   Gary D.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 08:54:29 AM by (unknown) »

DanB

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Re: Dan B ?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 09:08:47 AM »
I think perhaps he feels that, if we use those magnets on a 12" disk, and wind the coils exactly the right size, then there is room for 10 coils so 5 phase makes sense.  Its also a very nice simple way to wire things up - its kind of nifty.  For lower voltage machines, it has the advantage of allowing us to use finer wire which has an advantage (thick wire, or multiple strands is tedious).  5 phase runs a bit smoother and makes slightly more efficient use of the conductors... a very small advantage.

It forces us to have rectifiers at the tower top which I think is a drawback.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 09:08:47 AM by (unknown) »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Flux

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Re: Dan B ?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 09:36:09 AM »
Jerry


Here are the results of some tests I did some time ago comparing delta with phases rectified separately.  This is with a dual rotor, I can't be sure that the results would apply with an iron cored winding.


The results of delta and 3 x single phase are about 5% less efficient than the same alternator star connected.


With a rectifier load delta windings suffer from harmonics circulating within the winding even if it is perfectly balanced.


If it is not balanced the 3 x single phase method removes this circulating current below cut in but it comes back as soon as the voltage reaches cut in.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 09:36:09 AM by (unknown) »

Jerry

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Re: Dan B ?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 10:14:22 PM »
Hi Dan B


Thanks for taking time to pic this topic apart. I've only done one dual disc rotor alt. I've coppied your 12 magnets and 9 coils but with ceramics.


I still have that alt setting on the work bench. I have accsess to all 9 coils so there is the posability to try several wiring scheems.


One thought entered my gray matter. When you wire normal star 3 phase the 3 coil groups  are in sires with each other. 3 coils per phase wired in sires and then through star wiring these 3 coil groups are wired sires with each other.


If you rectify each coil group seperatly and then perelell the dc outputs this would be equivilent to delta but without the .73 loss. Only the .5 loss per bridge but this loss is less than the .73 diferance between the phases.


If you wire the 3 bridge output in sires this would equal more than 1/3 voltage than normal star. You will have .5 voltage drop per bridge but still higher than the .73 diferance that normal 3 phase star has.


Anyway I'll put the dual alt on the lathe and run it at 500 rpm and try several wiring arangments and post the results but it may be a week or 2 if I don't get to busy and forget.


                      JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 10:14:22 PM by (unknown) »